The Psychology and Anthropology of Consciousness

“There is in my opinion no tenable argument against the hypothesis that psychic functions which today seem conscious to us were once unconscious and yet worked as if they were conscious. We could also say that all the psychic phenomena to be found in man were already present in the natural unconscious state. To this it might be objected that it would then be far from clear why there is such a thing as consciousness at all.”
~ Carl Jung, On the Nature of the Psyche 

An intriguing thought by Jung. Many have considered this possibility. It leads to questions about what is consciousness and what purpose it serves. A recent exploration of this is the User Illusion by Tor Nørretranders, in which the author proposes that consciousness doesn’t determine what we do but chooses what we don’t do, the final vote before action is taken, but action itself requires no consciousness. As such, consciousness is useful and advantageous, just not absolutely necessary. It keeps you from eating that second cookie or saying something cruel.

Another related perspective is that of Julian Jaynes’ bicameral mind theory. I say related because Jaynes influenced Nørretranders. About Jung, Jaynes was aware of his writings and stated disagreement with some ideas: “Jung had many insights indeed, but the idea of the collective unconscious and of the archetypes has always seemed to me to be based on the inheritance of acquired characteristics, a notion not accepted by biologists or psychologists today” (quoted by Philip Ardery in “Ramifications of Julian Jaynes’s theory of consciousness for traditional general semantics“), although to be fair to Jung he didn’t so much argue for the “inheritance of acquired characteristics” but rather the inheritance of the possibility of acquired characteristics, a fundamental and important distinction about which Daniel Everett also wrongly interpreted — as Jung put it, “It is not, therefore, a question of inherited ideas but of inherited possibilities of ideas” (What is the Blank Slate of the Mind?). What these three thinkers agree about is that the unconscious mind is much more expansive and capable, more primary and important than is normally assumed. There is so much more to our humanity than the limits of interiorized self-awareness.

What interested me was the anthropological angle. Here is something I wrote earlier:

“Julian Jaynes had written about the comparison of shame and guilt cultures. He was influenced in by E. R. Dodds. Combined with the earlier philological work of Bruno Snell, Dodds in turn based some of his own thinking about the Greeks on the work of Ruth Benedict. She originated the shame and guilt culture comparison in her writings on Japan and the United States. Benedict, like Margaret Mead, had been taught by Franz Boas. Boas developed some of the early anthropological thinking that saw societies as distinct cultures.”

Boas founded a school of thought about the primacy of culture, the first major challenge to race realism and eugenics. He gave the anthropology field new direction and inspired a generation of anthropologists.This was the same era during which Jung was formulating his own views.

As with Jung before him, Jaynes drew upon the work of anthropologists. Both also influenced anthropologists, but Jung’s influence of course came earlier. Even though some of these early anthropologists were wary of Jungian psychology, such as archetypes and collective unconscious, they saw personality typology as a revolutionary framework (those influenced also included the likes of Edward Sapir and Benjamin Lee Whorf, both having been mentors of Boas who maybe was the source of introducing linguistic relativism into American thought). Through personality types, it was possible to begin understanding what fundamentally made one mind different from another, a necessary factor in distinguishing one culture from another.

In Jung and the Making of Modern Psychology, Sonu Shamdasani describes this meeting of minds (Kindle Locations 4706-4718):

“The impact of Jung’s typology on Ruth Benedict may be found in her concept of Apollonian and Dionysian culture patterns which she first put forward in 1928 in “Psychological Types in the cultures of the Southwest,” west,” and subsequently elaborated in Patterns of Culture. Mead recalled that their conversations on this topic had in part been shaped by Sapir and Oldenweiser’s discussion of Jung’s typology in Toronto in 1924 as well as by Seligman’s article cited above (1959, 207). In Patterns of Culture, ture, Benedict discussed Wilhelm Worringer’s typification of empathy and abstraction, Oswald Spengler’s of the Apollonian and the Faustian and Friedrich Nietzsche’s of the Apollonian and the Dionysian. Conspicuously, ously, she failed to cite Jung explicitly, though while criticizing Spengler, she noted that “It is quite as convincing to characterize our cultural type as thoroughly extravert … as it is to characterize it as Faustian” (1934, 54-55). One gets the impression that Benedict was attempting to distance herself from Jung, despite drawing some inspiration from his Psychological Types.

“In her autobiography, Mead recalls that in the period that led up to her Sex and Temperament, she had a great deal of discussion with Gregory Bateson concerning the possibility that aside from sex difference, there were other types of innate differences which “cut across sex lines” (1973, 216). She stated that: “In my own thinking I drew on the work of Jung, especially his fourfold scheme for grouping human beings as psychological ical types, each related to the others in a complementary way” (217). Yet in her published work, Mead omitted to cite Jung’s work. A possible explanation for the absence of citation of Jung by Benedict and Mead, despite the influence of his typological model, was that they were developing oping diametrically opposed concepts of culture and its relation to the personality to Jung’s. Ironically, it is arguably through such indirect and half-acknowledged conduits that Jung’s work came to have its greatest impact upon modern anthropology and concepts of culture. This short account of some anthropological responses to Jung may serve to indicate that when Jung’s work was engaged with by the academic community, it was taken to quite different destinations, and underwent a sea change.”

It was Benedict’s Patterns of Culture that was a major source of influence on Jaynes. It created a model for comparing and contrasting different kinds of societies. Benedict was studying two modern societies, but Dodds came to see how it could be applied to different societies across time, even into the ancient world. That was a different way of thinking and opened up new possibilities of understanding. It set the stage for Jaynes’ radical proposal, that consciousness itself was built on culture. From types of personalities to types of cultures.

Here is an additional context to consider. Where did the bundle theory of mind originate in the first place? And how did it take hold in a small number of Western thinkers? Of course, the bundled mind itself probably goes back into the earliest of hominid evolution. As for the earliest written source, the ancient Buddhist texts are the first known example of an articulated bundle theory of mind, in having extended and deepened the psychological insights from even older Hindu texts.

So, how did it go West? The apparently first Western thinker to write about it was David Hume, soon to be followed by Friedrich Nietzsche (The Psychology and Anthropology of Consciousness). Some speculate that Hume heard of this view of the mind from Buddhist texts and ideas carried back with Christian missionaries returning from the East. I don’t know where Nietzsche picked up on it from, although it is true there was a flood of Eastern texts at that time. As a philology scholar and professor, one would suspect Nietzsche would’ve been quite familiar with the new thoughts circulating among Western intellectuals.

There is one thing we can state with certainty. Jung was heavily influenced by Nietzsche, as could be seen in many of his works, including his writings on psychological types. Nietzsche formulated thoughts on the Dionysian and Apollonian. Related to that distinction, Jung also drew upon “Wilhelm Ostwald’s classical and romantic attitudes; Carl Spitteler’s differentiations of Prometheus and Epimetheus; and Goethe’s diastole and systole, terms coined to indicate expansion and contraction” (Deirdre Bair, Jung: A Biography).

One can sense the resonance in the opposition between the bundled mind and egoic mind. To emphasize this point, Nietzsche linked the Apollonian to the visual, i.e., sculpture and dreams; whereas the Dionysian was understood as auditory, i.e., music (Stephen H. Knoblauch, The Apollonian Eye and the Dionysian Ear). Jaynes’ bicameral mind is primarily defined by voice-hearing and his post-bicameral consciousness took form around the visual metaphor of mind as container, as an inner space. This is partly a distinction between oral cultures and literary cultures.

But in various ways, such comparisons had been made by many thinkers. It’s hard to say who originated thinking about the bundled mind, since supposedly everyone has access to it. It’s obviously far from being a new idea exactly. It’s just that, when it was more dominant in the culture, no one bothered to analyze it because it was simply the social and psychic reality that was taken for granted — there was nothing with which to compare and contrast. The bundle theory of mind, as overtly articulated, suddenly pops up in late modern writings.

We are only able to follow the direct lines of influence with the 20th century scholars who were more fastidious about detailing their references. Even then, I’m not sure about all of Dodds’ sources. Where did he first come across this kind of thinking? Was he familiar with Hume, Nietzsche, and/or Jung? Did he know about Buddhist psychology? Dodds was a classical scholar and so one would think he might have had some knowledge about how such ideas developed over time.

All of that is just something that caught my attention. I find fascinating such connections, how ideas get passed on and develop, how they spread like mind viruses. None of that was the original reason for this post, though. I was doing my regular perusing of the web and came across some stuff of interest. This post is simply an excuse to share some of it. Such topics are often on my mind. The human psyche is amazing. It’s easy to forget what a miracle it is to be conscious and the power of the unconscious that underlies it. There is so much more to our humanity than we can begin to comprehend. Such things as dissociation and voice hearing isn’t limited to crazy people or, if it is, then we’re all a bit crazy.

* * *

Other Multiplicity
by Mark and Rana Mannng, Legion Theory

When the corpus callosum is severed in adults, we create separate consciousnesses which can act together cooperatively within a single body. In Multiple Personality Disorder (MPD), or Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID), as it is now known, psychological trauma to the developing mind also creates separate consciousnesses which can act together cooperatively within a single body. And in both cases, in most normal social situations, the individual would provide no reason for someone to suspect that they were not dealing with someone with a unitary consciousness.

The Third Man Factor: Surviving the Impossible
by John Geiger
pp. 161-162

For modern humans generally, however, the stress threshold for triggering a bicameral hallucination is much higher, according to Jaynes: “Most of us need to be over our heads in trouble before we would hear voices.” 10 Yet, he said, “contrary to what many an ardent biological psychiatrist wishes to think, they occur in normal individuals also.” 11 Recent studies have supported him, with some finding that a large minority of the general population, between 30 and 40 percent, report having experienced auditory hallucinations. These often involve hearing one’s own name, but also phrases spoken from the rear of a car, and the voices of absent friends or dead relatives. 12 Jaynes added that it is “absolutely certain that such voices do exist and that experiencing them is just like hearing actual sound.” Even today, though they are loath to admit it, completely normal people hear voices, he said, “often in times of stress.”

Jaynes pointed to an example in which normally conscious individuals have experienced vestiges of bicameral mentality, notably, “shipwrecked sailors during the war who conversed with an audible God for hours in the water until they were saved.” 13 In other words, it emerges in normal people confronting high stress and stimulus reduction in extreme environments. A U.S. study of combat veterans with post-traumatic stress disorder found a majority (65 percent) reported hearing voices, sometimes “command hallucinations to which individuals responded with a feeling of automatic obedience.”

Gods, voice-hearing and the bicameral mind
by Jules Evans, Philosophy for Life

Although humans evolved into a higher state of subjective consciousness, vestiges of the bicameral mind still remain, most obviously in voice-hearing. As much as 10% of the population hear voices at some point in their lives, much higher than the clinical incidence of schizophrenia (1%). For many people, voice-hearing is not debilitating and can be positive and encouraging.

Sensing a voice or presence often emerges in stressful situations – anecdotally, it’s relatively common for the dying to see the spirits of dead loved ones, likewise as many as 35% of people who have recently lost a loved one say they have a sense of the departed’s continued presence. Mountaineers in extreme conditions often report a sensed presence guiding them (known as the Third Man Factor).

And around 65% of children say they have had ‘imaginary friends’ or toys that play a sort of guardian-angel role in their lives – Jaynes thought children evolve from bicameral to conscious, much as Piaget thought young children are by nature animist

Earslips: Of Mishearings and Mondegreens
by Steven Connor, personal blog

The processing of the sounds of the inanimate world as voices may strike us as a marginal or anomalous phenomenon. However, some recent work designed to explain why THC, the active component of cannabis, might sometimes trigger schizophrenia, points in another direction. Zerrin Atakan of London’s Institute of Psychiatry conducted experiments which suggest that subjects who had been given small doses of THC were much less able to inhibit involuntary actions. She suggests that THC may induce psychotic hallucinations, especially the auditory hallucinations which are classically associated with paranoid delusion, by suppressing the response inhibition which would normally prevent us from reacting to nonvocal sounds as though they were voices. The implications of this argument are intriguing; for it seems to imply that, far from only occasionally or accidentally hearing voices in sounds, we have in fact continuously and actively to inhibit this tendency. Perhaps, without this filter, the wind would always and for all of us be whispering ‘Mary’, or ‘Malcolm’.

Hallucinations and Sensory Overrides
by T. M. Luhrmann, Stanford University

Meanwhile, the absence of cultural categories to describe inner experience does limit
the kinds of psychotic phenomena people experience. In the West, those who are psychotic sometimes experience symptoms that are technically called “thought insertion” and “thought withdrawal”, the sense that some external force has placed thoughts in one’s mind or taken them out. Thought insertion and withdrawal are standard items in symptoms checklists. Yet when Barrett (2004) attempted to translate the item in Borneo, he could not. The Iban do not have an elaborated idea of the mind as a container, and so the idea that someone could experience external thoughts as placed within the mind or removed from it was simply not available to them.

Hallucinatory ‘voices’ shaped by local culture, Stanford anthropologist says
by Clifton B. Parker, Stanford University

Why the difference? Luhrmann offered an explanation: Europeans and Americans tend to see themselves as individuals motivated by a sense of self identity, whereas outside the West, people imagine the mind and self interwoven with others and defined through relationships.

“Actual people do not always follow social norms,” the scholars noted. “Nonetheless, the more independent emphasis of what we typically call the ‘West’ and the more interdependent emphasis of other societies has been demonstrated ethnographically and experimentally in many places.”

As a result, hearing voices in a specific context may differ significantly for the person involved, they wrote. In America, the voices were an intrusion and a threat to one’s private world – the voices could not be controlled.

However, in India and Africa, the subjects were not as troubled by the voices – they seemed on one level to make sense in a more relational world. Still, differences existed between the participants in India and Africa; the former’s voice-hearing experience emphasized playfulness and sex, whereas the latter more often involved the voice of God.

The religiosity or urban nature of the culture did not seem to be a factor in how the voices were viewed, Luhrmann said.

“Instead, the difference seems to be that the Chennai (India) and Accra (Ghana) participants were more comfortable interpreting their voices as relationships and not as the sign of a violated mind,” the researchers wrote.

Tanya Luhrmann, hearing voices in Accra and Chenai
by Greg Downey, Neuroanthropology

local theory of mind—the features of perception, intention, and inference that the community treats as important—and local practices of mental cultivation will affect both the kinds of unusual sensory experiences that individuals report and the frequency of those experiences. Hallucinations feel unwilled. They are experienced as spontaneous and uncontrolled. But hallucinations are not the meaningless biological phenomena they are understood to be in much of the psychiatric literature. They are shaped by explicit and implicit learning around the ways that people pay attention with their senses. This is an important anthropological finding because it demonstrates that cultural ideas and practices can affect mental experience so deeply that they lead to the override of ordinary sense perception.

How Universal Is The Mind?
by Salina Golonka, Notes from Two Scientific Psychologists

To the extent that you agree that the modern conception of “cognition” is strongly related to the Western, English-speaking view of “the mind”, it is worth asking what cognitive psychology would look like if it had developed in Japan or Russia. Would text-books have chapter headings on the ability to connect with other people (kokoro) or feelings or morality (dusa) instead of on decision-making and memory? This possibility highlights the potential arbitrariness of how we’ve carved up the psychological realm – what we take for objective reality is revealed to be shaped by culture and language.

A puppet is a magical object. It is not a toy, is it? Here they see it as puppet theatre, as puppets for kids. But it’s just not like that. These native tribes — in Africa or Oceania, etc. — the shamans use puppets in communication not only with the upper world, with the gods, but even in relation when they treat a sick person. Those shamans, when they dress as some demon or some deity, they incarnate genuinely. They are either the totem animal or the demon. (via Matt Cardin)

55 thoughts on “The Psychology and Anthropology of Consciousness

    • Some psychedelic research has shown positive results. There is evidence that certain psychedelics can be useful for resetting the addictive brain. But of course most of the research was made illegal or difficult. It’s only been recently that psychedelic research has started to be taken seriously again.

    • “Intelligence – and not just relentless practice – plays a significant role in determining chess skill”

      That seems based on the assumption that intelligence itself is inherent and uneffected by external variables. The fact is we know that intelligence is causally related to environmental conditions. Besides physical factors (e.g., nutrition), there are things a child does or is encouraged to do that will increase lifelong neurocognitive development and hence intelligence, which in turn would determine their potential for skill at various intellectual activities such as playing chess. Pointing to intelligence as a causal factor isn’t entirely meaningful when intelligence is an indicator of and proxy for so many other causal factors.

    • There is ‘grit’. The only problem with that explanation is that it’s a bit of a non-explanation. It basically states a truism, those who work hard achieve more. It leaves unexplained actual causal factors.

      The related factors are important as well. High IQ sometimes goes along with particular dysfunctions such as Aspergers. Mercury toxicity will increase IQ while also increasing major cognitive and behavioral problems. The same goes for toxoplasmosis for girls.

      Both ‘grit’ and ‘intelligence’ are broad concepts. They can mean many things and be caused by many factors.

  1. There’s reasonably compelling evidence that individual differences in these components of the cognitive system are based in physiology–density of white matter connections, throughput of nutrient supply and metabolic waste disposal, balance and distribution of excitatory and inhibitory neurotransmitters, etc.–which might well mean no human has approached the upper limit to how much these cognitive resources could scale up.

    • That is a scientific way of stating something that otherwise seems obvious. We have no reason, based on scientific evidence, to assume humans have come even close to their cognitive potential. But we have much reason to guess that cognitive potential might be immense.

    • That makes me sad. I was talking to my dad about this kind of thing. Why don’t we praise people for being basically well-functioning and socially adapted? Why do employers care so little about moral character and the work ethic? Why don’t we raise kids to be kind and helpful? Our priorities in this society are massively fucked up.

    • It shows how easily biases get built into institutions. But it’s funny that this gets so much attention in the way it does. I noticed that article is from the American Enterprise Institute, an extremely right-wing think tank. I doubt that think tank publishes articles about the racial and class biases also built into such institutions.

        • Even limiting ourselves to the issue of IQ tests, what are the biases of education or whatever that might be leading to the result of more high IQ boys? We know from other countries and sub-populations that the opposite pattern is found. The causal factors obviously include environmental factors, which inevitably would involve systemic and institutional factors. So, all we know is that one set of factors has a gender bias in one direction and another set of factors has a gender bias in the other direction. Neither bias is fair, assuming that fairness is the issue, but of course those working at right-wing think tanks have never cared about fairness for a moment in their lives.

    • I wonder if this has to do with the weird descriptions that get made about the ‘gifted’. Girls are more likely to develop earlier and so they maybe don’t stick out as much, since girls tend to learn social skills earlier. The very notion of ‘gifted’ has been portrayed as socially dysfunctional and so a smart kid who is more socially functional might not be perceived as being ‘gifted’. The very notion of ‘gifted’ has maybe become skewed toward stereotypical boy behaviors. Every parent with a boy who acts out wants to believe their child is ‘gifted’ rather than just being a standard boy.

    • This is one of those pointless debates. Sure, we always need better research for everything. And with new info, we will gain new understandings. But the kind of person who points to this aren’t interested in meaningful, rational debate.

      This Dienekes blog is an example of what to avoid. As with many alt-righters talking about race, he uses terms like Caucasoids and Negroids. WTF! Are we still in the 19th century? Such idiocy will drive even the most patiently tolerant insane.

    • Some comments from the Youtube video:

      sa ra6 months ago
      most university graduates in developed countries are women .in Iran 70 percent of stem fields and engineering students are women (despite all its government attempt to ban them from university) early digital computer programmers were women and wireless was invented by a woman.I mentioned these few that you can feel their impact on the present moment where you are sitting at your desk in front of your laptob

      carmillaburana2 years ago
      The notion of “too good to be true” is not a scientific one, but an ideological one. How is a valid sociological explanation too efficient to be relevant ?
      Plus, as to the lack of “control subjects”, how exactly are these to be found : where can we find women and men who have not been subjected all their life to both insidious and direct bias about women’s mathematical abilities ? On Mars ?
      The control subjects exist : they are the men, and the tests show that existing prejudices affect both men (who perform better because they are told they are better and hence gain confidence in this domain) and women (who are told the opposite). But an informed scholar such as yourself should know that social structures are embedded in ideological beliefs that cannot be merely put aside for the sake of a test’s objectivity… Unless you deliberately seek to mislead your audience into reinforcing old dogmatic views on relationship between men and women…

    • A good response to the idiocy, along with a couple of comments to it:

      http://the-orbit.net/almostdiamonds/2012/07/22/stereotype-threat-a-problem-that-does-not-exist/

      Those familiar with discussion of social science research on inequalities will recognize this kind of question as a “magic button” question. Is stereotype threat the one overwhelming thing that causes a gender gap in mathematics? Um, does any social phenomenon have just one overwhelming cause? Generally not, but that doesn’t stop Stoet, and his coauthor David C. Geary, from asking exactly that. […]

      So the question of the paper was not “Does stereotype threat exist?” or “Does stereotype threat contribute to gender differences on difficult mathematical tests?” If it had been, the answer provided by the paper would have been an unequivocal “Yes.” The authors excluded every study that did not use a male control group or used an adjustment to math scores, and they still found that that the existence of stereotype threat was supported in 30% of situations studied. […]

      There is evidence of stereotype threat that has been replicated reliably, if not universally. For a social phenomenon, that’s pretty good. […]

      o, the paper shows an effect even after removing the studies without male control groups, but it’s important to mention those studies don’t have male control groups–and that being told men don’t perform well at a math test could, if it ever happened, possibly affect men’s performance. The paper says that, to the extent stereotype threat is presented as the only problem affecting women’s performance, there is too much attention paid to stereotype threat, but the press release says paying any attention to it at all is a problem. The paper finds replication of the effect, but the press release calls it “a problem that does not exist”.

      It’s a sad state of affairs when a press release and a paper are this far off on their conclusions, but it does, once again, demonstrate how important it is to read the one of them that is peer-reviewed.

      aleph squared
      July 23, 2012 at 7:51 am
      11
      The weird thing for me is that even if this paper did conclude that stereotype threat doesn’t exist/have an effect, stereotype threat has been supported by so many studies that it would need many many more studies finding no effect to make it even remotely reasonable to declare something as grandiose as stereotype threat being over or gone or never here.

      Giliell, not to be confused with The Borg
      July 23, 2012 at 9:29 am
      12
      Ah, yes, press releases.
      That’s how I learned over the years to go and check if tehre was something spectacular in the press. Most times you’re going to be disappointed, angry or both.
      But I’m wondering a bit about the control-group question (I remember from the “Gender Delusion” that you actually can test this with a male control in some cases, but how are you going to control for a phenomenon that is present since we’re born?
      I mean, you can’t just change the message to “men are bad at maths” unless you raise a group of men in a Trueman-show scenario.

      karmakin
      July 23, 2012 at 1:46 pm
      13
      What Giliell said. It’s impossible to find a control group that isn’t in some way conditioned to common social/cultural memes and tropes. I do think that looking at stereotype threat is one angle on a much bigger problem, and that bigger problem would be easier to test for.

      Three groups, randomly chosen. One group is told that the average mark on the test is 80. Another group is told that the average mark on the test is 50. A third group is told nothing. See how the test results compare. Do a second test, mix up the groupings, and see how the results compare to the original.
      It’s not exactly the same..with stereotype threat you’re talking about internal expectations and with that test you’re looking at external expectations, but I would suspect you would get similar results, due to things such as confidence and stress.
      One reason why I think one would see a rather big pushback against these concepts is that they directly challenge some pretty big concepts in terms of academics and education. (I.E. with high stakes testing we’re not only testing knowledge, we’re also testing relative stress levels, making the results basically useless if you’re looking to measure knowledge)

    • This is what undermines the HBD, race realism, and other such simplistic views. Changing a single factor can alter real world results to an extreme degree. Now consider the fact that every result is dependent on unknown numbers (thousands? millions?) of factors, most of which we are completely unaware of and ignorant about. Humans and societies are complex systems within an even more complex environment.

      Based on little knowledge and much speculation, to blame so much on a single factor like race or whatever is pure idiocy (even ignoring to what extent these kinds of categories are meaningful at all). If you feel the need to focus on a single factor, at least look for one that has been thoroughly researched and confirmed such as lead toxicity, nutrition, or inequality.

      One thing that is clear is how little we still know about human nature and the world. The other thing is that humans constantly surprise us in demonstrating the immensity of potential that remains hidden until certain conditions and incidences cause it to manifest.

    • Yeah. I get irritated and bored with most speculation. It’s not that I dislike speculation on principle. But most of the time it seems ideologically driven, a conclusion looking for evidence. A case in point:

      “But for all the work that Zhao, Plomin, and others have done to this point, not a single gene has reliably been shown to account for the heritability of IQ. Plomin believes that if we could identify just a few of the genes associated with IQ, we could make huge strides in the field of education.”

      Even though the evidence is lacking, Plomin thinks we should keep looking for the evidence he believes should exist because that is what he wants to believe. Maybe genetics by itself doesn’t directly explain anything, since genetics are dependent on epigenetics and environment. The same genetics could express with completely opposite results dependent on unknown numbers of factors.

      I noticed this as well:

      “Essentially, what heritability estimates is the ratio between how much the range of genetic differences can affect a given trait compared to how much a range of environmental factors can affect that same trait.”

      That isn’t quite correct. It isn’t compared to all environmental factors. The comparison is only to known and measurable environmental factors, which probably isn’t the majority of environmental factors.

      Plus, how do epigentics and the microbiome, the latter including non-human genetics (90% of the human body’s genetics is non-human), fit into the equation? By the way, the microbes in your body contribute to which human genetics get expressed and how they get expressed (i.e., epigenetics).

      Once again, in speculating, we are simply out of our depths. Our present ignorance swamps our present knowledge. Speculation ends up being pointless. Maybe we should simply admit we don’t entirely know at the moment. It could turn out genetics doesn’t work whatsoever like we assume it to work.

      Instead of wasting our time on speculation, maybe we should focus on what we have proven to improve lives: better nutrition, healthcare availability, disease control, parasite elimination, pollution regulation, education resources, etc. After we take care of the obvious failures of our society, then we can move onto more complex problems of genetics.

    • That is the type of thing that seems like speculating on limited info. These simplistic discussions always miss the point. They often become platforms for ideological opinionating, looking for the evidence that fits some particular view. One commenter made a similar point about the lack of context:

      “As a statistician, this feels like over-interpreting the results of a simple regression.
      An alternative explanation is that not all “training” as measured is equal. For example, measuring training as a computer scientist as “number of hours on the job” is too coarse a metric to capture the aspects that is driving development, (working in a stanford lab versus working at a helpdesk).”

      I’m also reminded of the book I’ve been reading, This Is Your Brain on Parasites by Kathleen McAuliffe.

      In one section, she discusses the microbiome. One study she mentions involved microbially sterile mice, such as behaving less cautiously. They act different than normal mice because microbes apparently help animals in the learning process, along with determining how the structure of the brain develops.

      Accordingly, the existence and kind of microbiome would determine how much effect practice has. The ability to learn, from practice or otherwise, is dependent on many other factors as well.

      I’m constantly amazed about how ignorant we are about almost every aspect of life and the world. Change one factor and you’ll get entirely different results and most of the time we don’t even know what the factors are. It’s like that other mice study showing that even scientific controls don’t control for apparently some of the most important factors that can dramatically alter results.

      We should be much more intellectually humble in our speculations. And we should assume that almost everything we believe and think we know is to some degree false, partial, or inadequate in explaining reality.

  2. “To the extent that you agree that the modern conception of “cognition” is strongly related to the Western, English-speaking view of “the mind”, it is worth asking what cognitive psychology would look like if it had developed in Japan or Russia”

    Good question. William Blake famously blamed Locke and Newton for “dividing” the Western psyche and setting it upon itself.

    I don’t know if my comment on your Ideasthesia post got lost or it’s still awaiting moderation, because in there I wrote about the multiple ways in which people around my neck of the woods experience the world (including themselves) and connect it to Hindu traditions (chakras) as well, while elaborating some features of my tribe’s native spiritual way, vödú (which you guys call voodoo).

    I, for instance, can think not in words or pictures or even sound, but in taste or some other sense. Western education is biased to visual faculties. All my other imaginations (verbal, sonic, visual, etc) would be working but down-regulated. I’d just be imagining tastes and other gustatory experiences.

    This is why I like that theory of multiple intelligence so much, and prefer it to personality psychology. It actually can incorporate it, though; and I like that because Jung’s Reason which could either be affective or logical makes good sense; though, it goes even beyond that to faculties like Evaluative Reason; so Multiple Intelligence expands personality psychology and allows more dynamics and flexibility.

    I agree about cognitive psych, but well, that’s what it is by definition: the psychology of COGNITION. Hahaha.

    The younger field of Motivation Psychology would incorporate all of these and examine the topic better, in my view. I encourage you getting involved there too: you may be more satisfied by their broader perspective of taking into account affect, cognition, values, goals, advantage/disadvantage, etc, for how the psyche works.

    • “This is why I like that theory of multiple intelligence so much, and prefer it to personality psychology. It actually can incorporate it, though; and I like that because Jung’s Reason which could either be affective or logical makes good sense; though, it goes even beyond that to faculties like Evaluative Reason; so Multiple Intelligence expands personality psychology and allows more dynamics and flexibility.”

      I hadn’t previously thought about the correspondence of those two theories. But I can sense how they’d overlap. I’m not sure either would so much be an extension of the other, though, since I suspect the extension of such views could go in multiple directions.

      You bring up evaluative reason, which to my mind sounds much like the essence of Introverted Feeling. The dominant Fi types, at their core, make judgments but this propensity is not quite either affective or logical in how a non-IXFP is likely to think about it. The affective as emotional perception and expression, relating and behavior is more in line with the SF types and the FJ types. And the logical as analytical and abstract thought has more to do with the Thinking types.

      This is why going back to Jung dominant Fi has been considered inscrutible, as it doesn’t fit into the Western paradigm of the human mind and human nature. But I could see how this function could also be understood in terms of multiple intelligences. I’d assume that each theory has insights the other lacks. And each surely would interpret even the same observations in different light.

      About your encouraging me to look into motivation psychology, I suppose I could do that. But I’d have to find a way to feel my way into the topic. Is there a particular angle, a particular thinker or theory you have in mind? Have you read some good pieces on it? And if you know it in some detail, could you offer some of the ways it might link to other areas of study?

      I typically have to explore the connections before I can grasp what something is and then explore it more deeply in and of itself. That is why I tend to start with the secondary literature that puts something in a larger context, outlining the factors of the historical and interpersonal in how ideas were articulated, developed, and influenced. I have to slowly work myself into a worldview by first tracing its most distant borders.

        • Evaluative reasoning seems akin to meta-cognition, the thinking about thought and what is related to thought. It’s seeking to understand the context, meaning, and significance of what is in or of the mind. To me, this very much feels like not merely Fi but that combined with Ne. I can annoy people with always looking for what is underlying both below ideas, words, and behavior. And this was a common attitude among INFPs I interacted with on an INFP forum. As a judging function, dominant Fi is all about discernment and “appraisal of the effectiveness, validity, meaning and relevance of an act, idea, technique or object. But much of this especially relevance would be heavily informed by the wide-ranging context and connections coming from auxiliary Ne. It might be different for an ISFP. Without auxiliary Ne, there would be less interest in thought, ideas, etc. It is the auxiliary function that, for the Introvert, gives them the material their dominant function works with.

          There is another aspect as well. INFPs, according to theory, have tertiary Si. This has made sense in my experience. There is a very human quality about Si, similar to the very human quality of Fi, as both are obsessed with the subjective and intersubjective. Si looks for another kind of meaning in relationships, in the familiar and known, what is grounded in the past and in tradition. My mother is a dominant Si type and it is from her that I learned my obsession with psychologically analyzing people, specifically other family members. A tertiary function supposedly plays a key role in the psyche as expressing in child-like ways and INFPs do tend to have strong attachments to their own childhood and their child-like sensibility. Si gives a personal depth to Fi, as Ne gives breadth. Then aspirational Te can give an analytical edge that shows up more over time. My own Te has very much come to overcompensate because of learning analytical thought from my ESTJ father. There is, in the INFP experience, a dynamic polarity between Fi’s evaluative reason and Te’s analytical reason.

          Western society in general and American society in particular, according to John L. Giannini in Compass of the Soul, is dominated by the ESTJ type although shifting toward ENTJ (dominant Te in either case). That is why the INFP has long represented the shadow of dominant WEIRD society, which probably puts a massive psychic load on INFPs for them to carry. Evaluative reasoning isn’t merely an alternative form of reason but a threat to the social order. Fi easily manifests in challenging and even radical ways. I’ve speculated that Osama bin Laden was an INFP, considering his values-driven intellect and moral righteousness — he didn’t only judge Western civilization for he did so from a position that questioned the entire ideological justification for Western hegemony, and so his zealous vision had immense persuasion and power to those he was speaking to and for. Moral righteousness is evaluative reasoning pushed to an extreme. It maybe was what gave an edge to the fiery rhetoric of someone like Thomas Paine.

          As a side note, I feel a need to throw in some comments on dominant Ni. I’ve long been fascinated with it, as you know. It is inscrutible in a different way than Fi and maybe is even less understood. A dominant Fi type often chooses not to be understood as a defensive measure. But dominant Ni types, without the psychological impulse of Fi, maybe don’t even tend to understand themselves all that well. Ni is a black hole that the mind spirals around but the center remains forever hidden, including to the dominant Ni type. The dominant Ni types I’ve known don’t seem overly capable of articulating Ni to themselves, much less explaining it to others. The dominant Fi type, however, knows (or feels they know) with absolute certainty their own sense of core identity, meaning, and value. I bring this up because, thought not a judging function, Ni has a drilling down component that could be expressed as discerning insight, if not entirely evaluative in nature. Despite it being a perceiving function, dominant Ni is powerfully turned inward and because of its abstract tendency it can be applied to reasoning, but for certain it is neither analytical nor affective. So, if it isn’t exactly evaluative reason, we must come up with a fourth category of thinking style.

          It’s not an issue of what one thinks of Jungian typology, in the form of Myers-Briggs or anything else. Jungian typology simply gives a terminology for speaking about what otherwise is difficult to give voice to. Jungian typology itself is very much grounded in evaluative reasoning. As formulated in Myers-Briggs theory, it has been argued that it is heavily biased toward INFP because Isabel Briggs Myers was, as indicated in the test she developed, an INFP. It’s interesting to think that something like evaluative reasoning might not be limited to a thinking style for it also might have elements of a personality type/function or, if you prefer FFM and Big 5, a personality trait. One way or another, thinking styles do seem related to personality, whichever one might be the primary causal factor (though maybe neither is causal and instead both effects of something deeper). But obviously, anyone potentially can learn any thinking style as anyone potentially can develop any function-attitude or trait. Neuroplasticity allows for much wiggle room within the human psyche.

      • https://www.unicef-irc.org/KM/IE/impact_4.php

        https://www.betterevaluation.org/en/resources/guide/evaluative_reasoning

        I have not yet found an authoritative acknowledgment of the existence of evaluative reasoning except in philosophy.

        Based on my ongoing study of it I find it to have a huge part to play in what moral reasoning is, but is very different from logic and affective reasoning (which you say Extraverted Feeling ). The problem is our collective (Anglophones) English vernacular has used moral to term both evaluative reasoning and affective reasoning for so long we no longer realize that moral reasoning is simply reasoning according to social mores judgments of right and wrong that decide the fate or the survival of the group.

        It also doesn’t help that Kant saw moral and sentiment being the same. Related, but not same.

        Evaluation is more about considerations like context, relevance, importance, advantage (both personal, other, or social/group-centred) – some of what I guess people perceive and thus makes them believe reason is a slave of the feelings or the emotions or whatever. But it isn’t; it is also a very cold, calculating, brainy apparatus that has nothing to do with “feelings”.

        Affective reasoning is more of interpersonal. This is the domain of compassion, empathy, sympathy, even schadenfreude, irritation and annoyance. Without it you can’t be good at rhetoric and art – I guess I’m good at it and that’s why I’m so good at both black and blue humor.

        Thus, for a wit like me, annoying you would be to provoke a wry laughter. But for an aggressor, it’d be to emotionally destroy you. This is where both evaluative and affective reasoning combine.

        I say Kant was wrong in conflating moral and sentiment because of this example: there are two hostages – your friend/lover and the heir-apparent of your society – whom would you save, if you could only save one and only one? Saving the heir ensures the continuity of your society when the current ruler is gone. Saving your friend/lover is as anyone does to a friend: not wanting to see harm come to them. Another even more illustrative example is your friend has a deadly contagious disease and you must make a decision: the fate of your society versus the fate of your friend, which would you save?

        In each example, one is a moral consideration and the other is an affective one. But typically, because groups have to do with humans, whom by default you’d affectionate (not in sense of “love” or romance and such like) with, you “feel” something in terms of the moral as well.

        And those who believe reasoning is opposed to feeling are wrong. Reason is just a faculty of combining, splitting, ordering, organizing – both creative and critical. Jung was right, I say. Jung introducing into the psychological literature the faculty of Feeling was a masterstroke. I’d call it affective reasoning now though. And in doing that he made the distinction between Feeling and Affect/Emotion, where the latter is a sensation. I agree. When you reflect on it, emotions are just mostly pleasure or pain relating to more intangible events rather than actual tangible objects, e.g. your disgust at sociopolitical events versus an ant biting you.

        Sensation itself in human biology encompasses sight, hearing, touch, taste, smell, pain perception, temperature perception, perception of position. All are grouped under either interoception (perception of internal events) or exteroception (perception of external events) And Jung wants us to include Emotion/Affect among these – and I agree. So Emotion would be a perception of an internal event, just like hunger/satiety or thirst/satiety.

        Moral is more of evaluating phenomena in a social context. It isn’t a type of reason, but only a context. Moral is the word for what’s concerned with the fate of a group and some other word must be coined for what’s concerned with the fate of an individual person or thing or place.

        • From the first link: “Decision makers frequently need evaluation to help them work out what to do to build on strengths and address weaknesses. To do so, they must know not only what the strengths and weaknesses are, but also which are the most important or serious, and how well or poorly the programme or policy is performing on them. Evaluative reasoning is the process of synthesizing the answers to lower- and mid-level evaluation questions into defensible judgements that directly answer the key evaluation questions.”

          The first part definitely evokes the modus operandi of a judging function. But it’s unclear what that would mean in terms of judging type vs perceiving type, as opposed to judging dominant function-attitude vs perceiving dominant function-attitude. A judging dominant function attitude will very much apply evaluative reasoning. Whether or not that is applied to external decision-making, though, has more to do with the judging function being Extraverted.

          Then again, maybe the Introvert with a judging function-attitude does make decisions if they are less outwardly apparent. I have a strong capacity to make a judgment and then follow through on it. For example, I decided the Amazon corporation was a threat to our society and so I haven’t done business with them for years. It was a decision made, albeit made privately in my own moral reckoning and moral behavior. This Intoverted-style of evaluative reasoning has to be pushed back so far to have its core principles threatened before they will turn to more Extraverted-style action. That is why, when its important enough, INFPs can make great visionary leaders who command with an absolute certainty of moral conviction, unpersuaded by the practical concerns and limitations of society.

          The last part is where dominant Ni can overlap with the territory of evaluative reasoning. As Ne ranges widely, Ni brings everything up close. It may look like madness or idiosyncrasy to the outsider, but there is a potent synthesis going on at the heart of Ni. What Ni by itself doesn’t lead to is outward judgment and decision-making. Ni offers no concrete answers and decisive solutions, evaluative or otherwise. Still, it can synthesize like no other. And combined with an auxiliary judging function that is Extraverted, the more well-developed dominant Ni type might be able to develop their own form of evaluative reasoning that with the late-life maturity of aspirational Se could have practical application. I could particularly see evaluative reasoning being used by an INTJ where tertiary Fi could play a helpful role of assisting Ni on the inner level. But INFJs can have a personable quality that makes Ni more accessible in relating to others and so might be more easy to apply as evaluative reasoning in the interpersonal world (they’ve been described as teddy bears with spikes).

          As compared to this, Fi doesn’t directly do the synthesizing work of Ni, even as it can mimic it by Fi reigning in Ne. I know personally the synthesizing part can be difficult for me since reigning in Ne is no easy task, which is the reason grounding of Si is helpful for bringing balance to the Perceiving side of the equation.

          Many kinds of people could come to evaluative reasoning by different paths. Obviously, evaluative reasoning isn’t a single thing. It is rather a broad umbrella of abilities that can express in divergent ways. What defines it most of all is what it isn’t, primarily and essentially neither analytical nor affective. In Jungian terms, my sense is that one way or another it has to do with the relationship between Intuition and Feeling, specifically Fi. Myers-Briggs offers a framework of thinking about this relationship in more complex and diverse ways, far beyond a single faculty but a broad range of abilities with numerous underlying mechanisms and expressions. Then again, I don’t doubt there are other entirely different frameworks that could be useful for this exact same purpose. Jung and Myers-Briggs just happens to be a view I’m most familiar with.

        • “Based on my ongoing study of it I find it to have a huge part to play in what moral reasoning is, but is very different from logic and affective reasoning (which you say Extraverted Feeling ). The problem is our collective (Anglophones) English vernacular has used moral to term both evaluative reasoning and affective reasoning for so long we no longer realize that moral reasoning is simply reasoning according to social mores judgments of right and wrong that decide the fate or the survival of the group.”

          This feels like familiar territory to me. As someone who tests as INFP, Fi is the function-attitude that directly deals with values and morality, and hence has to do with evaluative reasoning. To my INFP sensibility, the individual and the intersubjective are always mixed up. That is the essence of Fi. That is why so much always seems at stake in my thinking. I have less cognitive distance, in certain ways, than most people have and so I can easily take things personally, even ideas. That is to say everything, from my perspective, is immersed in value. I’m in constant evaluative mode.

          “Evaluation is more about considerations like context, relevance, importance, advantage (both personal, other, or social/group-centred) – some of what I guess people perceive and thus makes them believe reason is a slave of the feelings or the emotions or whatever. But it isn’t; it is also a very cold, calculating, brainy apparatus that has nothing to do with “feelings”.”

          That also fits into my experience. Some mistake INFPs as being merely or primarily emotional and no doubt INFPs are very interested in emotion and sometimes can express it easily. But Fi values and evaluation is not emotion. There can be a harsh aspect to Fi — as you say: “cold, calculating, brainy”. Many INFPs are rather intellectual and can be off-putting in their intensity. There isn’t always a surplus of emotional intelligence in the Fe sense… or else a stubborn unwillingness to use emotional intelligence because of an internal demand of a sometimes harsh moral sense. To dominant Fi, all will be judged and that may mean consequences be damned. It doesn’t always feel like a choice for an INFP since this is the core of their being. It would be betrayal when it touches upon personal values.

          “Affective reasoning is more of interpersonal. This is the domain of compassion, empathy, sympathy, even schadenfreude, irritation and annoyance. Without it you can’t be good at rhetoric and art – I guess I’m good at it and that’s why I’m so good at both black and blue humor.”

          INFPs love that kind of thing. But that isn’t to say they’re always good at it. That is because the interpersonal gets filtered through Ne. Fi may try to play the role of interpersonal by feeling into others and into the world at large. Still, it’s not the same thing, no matter how hard an INFP may try. They are better at understanding the interpersonal than they are in using it for actual relating. Ne observes and gathers, and then Fi filters and discerns… a slow methodical process that does not allow for immediate interpersonal responsiveness. Of course, anyone potentially could develop interpersonal skills. I’ve gotten better at it and yet it doesn’t come naturally.

          “Moral is more of evaluating phenomena in a social context. It isn’t a type of reason, but only a context. Moral is the word for what’s concerned with the fate of a group and some other word must be coined for what’s concerned with the fate of an individual person or thing or place.”

          To my INFP mind, this is all mixed up. Even though Introverted and often protective of their individuality, this personality type is obsessed with social phenomenon and social context. I don’t just feel my values and inner experience for I also feel my way into others and into the world. I feel everything, until I get overwhelmed and shut down. It can involve emotions, though not necessarily, since at times it can be utterly neutral or disengaged toward emotional content. Fi is a judging function and so can express purely as critical evaluation, piercing discernment, etc.

        • “Jung introducing into the psychological literature the faculty of Feeling was a masterstroke. I’d call it affective reasoning now though. And in doing that he made the distinction between Feeling and Affect/Emotion, where the latter is a sensation. […] So Emotion would be a perception of an internal event, just like hunger/satiety or thirst/satiety.”

          I concur with your assessment. I’m familiar with Si through my mother. There is a strong emotional/affective component to it. My mom is an extremely pragmatic and grounded person in many ways, but she is also driven by emotion and can be highly sensitive. There is no contradiction in this. All of this is about Perceiving by way of Introversion.

          This is why my mother so often conflates her emotions with her perceptions, in that everything has an emotional tinge. She can be quite prickly, which maybe is a common trait of all IXXJ types. Her home is as an emotional space and so a personal atmosphere. Si represents all that is familiar and what creates familiarity is largely emotion. With the passive quality of Perceiving, emotion lacks the active quality of Judging and hence lacks evaluation on its own.

          Your comments reminded me of something. Emotions aren’t things or essences. They can’t be found anywhere for, as you discuss, they are what and how we perceive. The following is an author who takes this to the next step by tossing in the cultural angle. It’s easy to think how culture is involved in the Judging functions because we are familiar with cultural judgments, but the same applies to the Perceiving functions. I’m not sure exactly if that fits in with your own views. I just thought I’d throw it out there.

          https://benjamindavidsteele.wordpress.com/2017/07/23/useful-fictions-becoming-less-useful/

          How Emotions are Made
          by Lisa Feldman Barrett
          Kindle Locations 91-104):

          “And yet . . . despite the distinguished intellectual pedigree of the classical view of emotion, and despite its immense influence in our culture and society, there is abundant scientific evidence that this view cannot possibly be true. Even after a century of effort, scientific research has not revealed a consistent, physical fingerprint for even a single emotion.”

          “So what are they, really?

          “When scientists set aside the classical view and just look at the data, a radically different explanation for emotion comes to light. In short, we find that your emotions are not built-in but made from more basic parts. They are not universal but vary from culture to culture. They are not triggered; you create them. They emerge as a combination of the physical properties of your body, a flexible brain that wires itself to whatever environment it develops in, and your culture and upbringing, which provide that environment. Emotions are real, but not in the objective sense that molecules or neurons are real. They are real in the same sense that money is real— that is, hardly an illusion, but a product of human agreement.”

          Kindle Locations 2999-3002

          “Essentialism is the culprit that has made the classical view supremely difficult to set aside. It encourages people to believe that their senses reveal objective boundaries in nature. Happiness and sadness look and feel different, the argument goes, so they must have different essences in the brain. People are almost always unaware that they essentialize; they fail to see their own hands in motion as they carve dividing lines in the natural world.”

          Kindle Locations 3245-3293

          “Now that the final nails are being driven into the classical view’s coffin in this era of neuroscience, I would like to believe that this time, we’ll actually push aside essentialism and begin to understand the mind and brain without ideology. That’s a nice thought, but history is against it. The last time that construction had the upper hand, it lost the battle anyway and its practitioners vanished into obscurity. To paraphrase a favorite sci-fi TV show, Battlestar Galactica, “All this has happened before and could happen again.” And since the last occurrence, the cost to society has been billions of dollars, countless person-hours of wasted effort, and real lives lost. […]

          “The official history of emotion research, from Darwin to James to behaviorism to salvation, is a byproduct of the classical view. In reality, the alleged dark ages included an outpouring of research demonstrating that emotion essences don’t exist. Yes, the same kind of counterevidence that we saw in chapter 1 was discovered seventy years earlier . . . and then forgotten. As a result, massive amounts of time and money are being wasted today in a redundant search for fingerprints of emotion. […]

          “It’s hard to give up the classical view when it represents deeply held beliefs about what it means to be human. Nevertheless, the facts remain that no one has found even a single reliable, broadly replicable, objectively measurable essence of emotion. When mountains of contrary data don’t force people to give up their ideas, then they are no longer following the scientific method. They are following an ideology. And as an ideology, the classical view has wasted billions of research dollars and misdirected the course of scientific inquiry for over a hundred years. If people had followed evidence instead of ideology seventy years ago, when the Lost Chorus pretty solidly did away with emotion essences, who knows where we’d be today regarding treatments for mental illness or best practices for rearing our children.”

          • I don’t know if Emotion doesn’t exist or not, but I do think what Emotion particularly responds to differs from culture to culture. Sometimes, maybe a lot of the time, the language for Emotions reflect the spiritual traditions of the people. I told you about the Hindu chakra-like experience of my people: in the particular example I gave it would be indignation in English. Not just an offense, but indignation. Sometimes, somehow, Emotions expressed very well by some languages aren’t so for others. The Emotions may remain essentially the same, in as much as we are all human with a human nervous system, but they differ in what they respond to; or else, eliciting it will be very difficult, because it doesn’t have as much import to one person as it does to another, so that you’d think it doesn’t even exist.

          • Emotions do and do not exist, in the way that any socially constructed thing exists: cultures, languages, numbers, states of mind, worldviews, philosophies, religions, governments, national borders, economic systems, socioeconomic class, ethnicity/race, etc. As you know, some go so far as to argue that individual and interiorized self-consciousness is socially constructed. This is maybe easier to understand from a neurological perspective. Recent research has shown that the brain treats perception and hallucination exactly the same. Both are active and creative processes.

            I think I brought this up in at least one recent post, but I forget which one (maybe it can be found in what I wrote about psychedelics and language). It goes further than some emotions not being expressed as well in certain cultures. The study of philology, linguistics, and anthropology indicate that experience itself isn’t often shared. That is particularly seen with the research into linguistic relativism. Much of what we thought was universal to human nature has turned out to be cultural, from numbers to colors, from sense of time to sense of direction. I’ve discussed this before in terms of social science and WEIRD populations, as most research has been done in Western countries and most research in Western countries has been done in the US, the WEIRDest of the WEIRD. This was discovered as more research was done with other cultures, especially hunter-gatherers.

            But the vastness of cultural divide is maybe seen most starkly with the study of ancient texts where there are experiences referred to that don’t match anything we modern humans comprehend (I’m thinking not only of Jaynes, also of Ong, Havelock, Snell, etc). Even the same words over time entirely change meaning, often going from some specific concrete experience to generalized abstraction. This is seen also with the ancient use of what we think of as color terms which seem to have as much referred to other things as well: texture, brightness, shade, affect, etc. This is far beyond merely an issue of interpretation. It’s an impenetrable barrier. We have no idea, in many cases, what they were writing about.

            The same basic wall of incomprehension happens among present cultures too, as seen in the anthropological literature. Daniel Everett shared a number of incidents where he was with Piraha in the exact same place and yet might as well have been in a separate reality. The Piraha experienced and saw things that were simply beyond Everett’s cultural reality tunnel. Meanwhile, maybe dozens of Piraha all around him shared the same experience. The Enlightenment belief in a universal human nature has been severely challenged, to say the least; and so has genetic determinism that was always mixed into Enlightenment thought. It turns out the human mind-body is much more plastic, as seen with epigenetics and the microbiome. Noam Chomsky was one of the many Western thinkers who defended a universal nature, that of a language structure/module built into the brain, but it was Everett’s work with the Piraha that proved it wrong.

            That isn’t to say we know what understanding will replace prior assumptions and biases. Lisa Feldman Barrett is just one among many who, after the old theories have been cleared away, are trying to make sense of the new evidence. But one thing is clear, the once dominant Western paradigm of the Enlightenment will either have to be entirely tossed out or largely overhauled. Quite likely, it will be thinkers from outside of the West who will be better positioned to come up with radically new explanations that will revolutionize thought.

  3. Carl Jung was a Jaynesian prior to Julian Jaynes, with the latter’s book coming out 7 years later (1976) and many decades after Jung first began writing about such ideas:

    “Before man learned to produce thoughts, thoughts came to him. He did not think–he perceived his mind functioning.” –Psychology and Religion: East and West, par. 81, 1969.

  4. We’ll plunk down the following comment here. But it’s actually a response to a lengthy essay at another website. This seems like a good place to put it, anyhow. Our above writing is partly about Julian Jaynes and related philologists, the focus of the the essayist in question.

    https://fexpr.blogspot.com/2020/07/sapient-storytelling.html

    Please accept my apologies in advance for this long response, but you offer so much to respond to. What brought me was my looking for info on recursion, language, rhetoric, Julian Jaynes, and the Piraha. This long piece fits the bill, and it’s a heroic effort on your part. I’ve read all of the scholarly books you discuss here, but it’s been a while and so it was helpful to get a refresher. You summarized and synthesized it all in a helpful manner. I want to respond to various points made and that will require some work. First off, I had a different response to Jaynes. My take wasn’t that Jaynes was conflating the bicameral mind with schizophrenia nor that he thought archaic verbal hallucinations were debilitating and harrowing. But whatever was Jaynes’ intended meaning, I suspect that the bicameral mind would’ve felt as normal as our own hallucinated inner voice, just taken as a given and normalized.

    You point to a contrast, according to your interpretation of Jaynes: “The Olympian gods do not, Snell notes, generally command (as the Christian god is wont to do [p. 29 endnote]), but rather offer advice to be followed or not at the person’s choice. This strikes me as a significant contrast with Jaynes, who emphasizes the obedience rather than the choice; recall my remarks (above) on the difference between overwhelming hallucinated gods, and conversing hallucinated companions. I have a particular interest in the difference this implies between paths conceptual evolution has followed in different cultures, rather than exclusively the particular path it did follow in ancient Greece.” I’ll have to give that more thought, particularly that last part about other cultures.

    In modern Western culture, specifically that of the United States, do most of us experience our ‘own’ inner voice as a command? Well, sometimes, as many of us unconsciously follow self-narratization without questioning it, since the power it holds over us is our unthinking obedience of it’s claim over us, it’s claim of being us (i.e., the authoritative ‘hail’ of internal interpellation). But sometimes we have competing thought-voices that cause us to pause. Jaynes had the idea that the voices would only speak when conventional behaviors, practices, advice, and truisms didn’t apply to a situation. That seems how it often works with Jaynesian consciousness as well. So it seems, most of us don’t sit around listening to an inner voice all the time, as it only emerges into consciousness when there is a conflict or problem.

    As I’m more familiar with Jaynes’ work, I most appreciated you exploration of Havelock and Snell, in which you occasionally compared them: “Note that Havelock’s orality and Jaynes’s bicamerality both omit reflecting on the emotion, with the interesting difference that in Jaynes’s version the problem is the presence of reflection, whereas in my extrapolation of Havelock the problem is the absence of reflection.” A resolution to that seeming difference of opinion immediately came to mind. As that was a transitional age, there likely was too much reflection in some ways and too little in others. The reflection that was developed was limited and not integrated into the larger society. So, it would’ve felt like a constant clash, halfway between two worlds where each side is pulling hard. It was an ideological battle in the deepest sense (i.e., the leftist theory of ideology as identity and worldview).

    What is valuable was how you were attempting to bring it together for your own purposes, that of the long developmental path: “I want an evolution of mind starting with a Homeric state that is oral (in Havelock’s sense) and selfless with natural gods (in Snell’s sense), with possibly some Jaynes-like element, morphing continuously to a literate conscious mind.” This is the same kind of purpose I have in mind, in that I too am trying to work out how humanity in general and our society in particular got to this point, but also how the past carries over into the present. The difference for me is that I’m also drawing upon entirely different areas of scholarship, such as studies in personal and public health, diet and nutrition, media technology, personality, religion, and more recent history, especially the transition from middle ages to early modernity.

    About the Homeric world, you speculate that, “Given the instructive nature of oral poetry, … Memory and a gift for the poetic form would be a real advantage for leaders, resulting in a culture led by the poetically talented (I’m picturing a word “poet‍o‍c‍racy” here), which leads me to wonder whether certain cognitive types that we would hold in high esteem —such as Albert Einstein’s— might have done poorly in that society.” That would fit with Jaynes’ view. Leaders would be those who spoke the voice of authorization, which is to say mimicked and repeated the conventional knowledge and truisms that the voice had always said. They would need tremendous memory, as demonstrated in traditional mnemonic systems, of which Lynne Kelly writes. Someone observed that the Australian Aborigines, when they enacted a songline, would change personality. It might be like Piraha possession, which to the Piraha is not possession at all but simply the spirit being present.

    Along the lines of my own thoughts, you mention that, “People in an oral culture do in fact, he says, speak ordinarily in a metrical fashion; a difficult thing to observe, but he mentions several glimpses of it; a few observations from encounters with oral cultures in WWI, and samples of pre-alphabetic writing.” I forget the title and author, but I was reading a book on ancient European history. It was mentioned that pre-literate Germans would greet each other with poetry. There was no specific details given. One suspects that they were formulaic meter learned from a young age, likely expressing proper ways of addressing someone according to relationship, social position, and purpose. In bicameral-minded societies, the poems might be heard as external voices.

    An important factor is how oral languages are structured differently. In the Truth About Language, Michael C. Corballis writes, “Thus the languages of simpler cultures tend to pack grammatical information into single words, whereas those of industrial society tend to use separate words in combination to create grammatical distinctions…(p.52)…In some languages, entire sentences are packed into a single word.” These are packets of readymade information, maybe related to how the Homeric poets built up their narratives. This is why recursion wouldn’t be needed in such societies. The complexity of meaning is built into the grammar, not requiring the individual to syntactically construct their own new meaning each time. As a side observation, I work in customer service where I repeat the same actions and words all day, and I’ve noticed that I’ll sometimes fall into a sing-song rhythm.

    You write about how there is more to it than only how people spoke but the entire embodied and relational experience: “The [complex] process, constraining [oral poetic] performer as well as audience, is hypnotic, we’re told, using rhythmic structure at multiple levels —meter, instrumental accompaniment, and sometimes also dance— to support memory by limiting the range of expressions possible and (if I’m following this point rightly) thereby minimizing the work involved, and also providing positive reinforcement through sensual pleasure.” It makes me think of how, from the Pauline Christians to early Middle Ages Catholicism, churches didn’t have pews as people stood, moved, and danced (Stephen J. Patterson, The Forgotten Creed; & Barbara Ehrenreich, Dancing in the Streets). Originally, Christianity was an ecstatic and charismatic religion, with the very first generation having an oral practice with no written holy texts, along with speaking in tongues.

    You said that initially you had difficulty appreciating that, “The oral poetic form uses doings rather than abstractions; Havelock is very clear, in this chapter, that abstractions are strictly a literate phenomenon, repeatedly emphasizing that wherever Homer appears to be framing an abstraction, it’s an illusion.” I don’t recall ever struggling with this, but maybe I learned about it earlier, before I got around to reading Snell, Havelock, and Jaynes. It came up when I was reading about research on intelligence and related issues, back when I was wasting my time criticizing human biodiversity and race realism. I can’t remember which books I might’ve been reading at the time, but there was discussion of the Flynn effect. What also came up was the the research on the concrete language of Soviet peasants by L. Vygotsky and A. Luria, since abstract thought correlates to fluid intelligence, a key component of IQ testing. By the way, Vygotsky’s theorizing on childhood language, pronouns, and self-talk fits in with Jaynes’ work.

    It’s easy to understand the “three key features of oral poetry, which Havelock repeatedly emphasizes are specifically criticized by Plato. (1) Everything must happen embedded in time, so, no timeless truths. (2) It must happen in a series of episodes, presented in sequence, between which the audience must construe any connection. (3) It must evoke vivid imagery.” That relates to mnemonics. But one also wonders if Homeric poetry was akin to the Aboriginal Songlines. They may have been using narratized info to be encoded in the landscapes described. Anyway, I have personal experience with sequential memory. When I was a kid, I was diagnosed with a learning disability that involved memory recall. Though I had trouble with isolated factoids, I could memorize a list of facts in sequence, but I couldn’t analyze or synthesize any of it. Similarly, when someone asked me about a movie I saw, my only way of telling about it was to describe it scene by scene.

    About such orality, you wrote of Plato’s “necessity, in order to implement his plan for societal reform, of eradicating orality. This is a major theme of Chapter Eleven: historians, says Havelock, have come to accept that the self-conscious mind emerged in Greece at about that time (he’s talking about Snell, apparently); but what’s new in his conception is that this means the overthrow of a preceding oral mindset.” Now that is great stuff! You’re on target in realizing that old mindsets often don’t just quietly and peacefully die but are assassinated by conspirators. Jaynes talks about this having been quite literal. There are accounts, such as in the Old Testament, of voice-hearers being rounded up and killed, along with an injunction for parents to kill their own children if they claim to hear a divine voice. This is where your theorizing begins to overlap with my own.

    Mentalities are part of totalizing ideological identities, worldviews, cultures, social orders, economic systems, food systems, etc; as represented by Jaynesian voice authorization and as enacted by Althusserian interpellation. But as we’re talking about an archaic mindset built on the bundled mind and 4E cognition (embodied, embedded, enacted, extended), it doesn’t just disappear because the external forms of it are suppressed and eliminated. The new mentality has to be constantly reinforced through organized power. Socrates and the other literate intellectuals weren’t necessarily content battling through mere ideas, words, and debate. The reason Socrates was sentenced to death was because his students and associates attempted a violent coup to overthrow Athenian democracy, whether or not Socrates was actually guilty by association.

    Obviously, oral culture persisted for a bit longer, more than another couple of millennia to be precise. Later after the Fall of Rome, feudalism brought back a non-literate culture combined with a rural lifestyle and a healthier diet. Production of agricultural foods declined, as more of the diet returned to hunting, trapping, fishing, and foraging with the rights of commoners ensuring access to the commons. When one reads about medieval carnival and other festivals, one senses the mentality. There was feasting, drunkenness (including mildly psychedelic groot ales), masking, role-playing, dancing, music, and likely poetry or other metered language. It wasn’t exactly an egalitarian society, but there were leveling forces. Carnival sometimes erupted into revolts when elites would be killed, and revolt had been understood as a real threat since the Peasants’ Revolts. In general, all of feudalism was based on communal identities. It wasn’t supportive of the developing centralized hierarchies of power, as pre-imperial monarchies grew more powerful.

    To suppress communal power, food laws (presumably written laws) such as beef bans before and during Carnival were passed based on Christianized Galenic humoral theory, involving the belief that diet shapes psychology and behavior. Later, during early modernity, the new emerging literate elite, neo-Platonic philosopher kings, intentionally dismantled feudalism entirely through the enclosure movement that privatized land. It was part of the social construction of what Brian J. McVeigh calls the propertied self. It heated up with the English Civil War and the Glorious Revolution but only gained full momentum the post-revolutionary land reform, associated with education and moral reform, that sought to promote individualism. Feudal villages were razed and feudal communal organizing was attacked, leaving behind landless peasants, unemployed and starving, that set the stage for the early modern revolutionary period.

    In an illiterate population, individualism wasn’t going to be willingly embraced, but the consequences weren’t foreseen by anyone involved, not even the literati. It’s been going for millennia and, though there are periods of concerted effort, mostly it has changed gradually. One could argue that it was built into agriculture itself, the reason I’ve often focused on food systems, dietary cultures, dietary ideology, food laws, agricultural advancements (pest control, new cultivars, etc) land reforms, infrastructure development (related to Marxian base and superstructure), health and nutrition, and such. The earliest literacy was largely dedicated to accounting of agricultural production and trade, as part of the legibility of a controlled social identity that makes the state possible (James Scott, Against the Grain).

    But I’d take it a step further. The change in diet and nutrition fundamentally alters human biology, neurocognition, psychology, behavior, and relating. The original meaning of ‘diet’ was lifestyle, and food has always been central to the functioning of any society. Leftists have an old understanding, going back to early modernity, that those who control food control society. I extend that by suggesting those who control diet control identity, and through that all other social control is leveraged. By diet, though, I do include more than food. What followed the Bronze Age collapse wasn’t only a change in thinking, as often is the focus in the work of philologists and the Axial Age theorists. We need to consider material conditions and look to scientific evidence, not limiting ourselves to ancient texts, as fascinating as they are.

    That classical period saw changes in agriculture, such as better control of weeds and ergot, as farming became professionalized, larger in scale, and more productive. Yet, besides a more grain-based diet what also happened was cultivation of new plants like opium and sugar cane. My argument is that this was another slow transition from psychedelics to stimulants and other addictive substances. Ergot, by the way, is the precursor of LSD. Some suggest that the dancing manias of the Middle Ages were caused by Western Europeans forgetting hos to control for ergot. But the traditional consumption of mildly psychedelic groot ales continued into early modernity, when colonial trade finally replaced them with new popular beverages like tea and coffee, along with the introduction of a variety of other psychoactive like chocolate and opium.

    Though, like you, I see key earlier developments that preceded agriculture. Humans only turned to increased plant food consumption because they lost their favorite food, the nutrient-dense megafauna that were as blubbery as whales. The human brain grew so large, according to the expensive tissue hypothesis, because the gut shrank in no longer needing to digest fiber. How humans hunted megafuna was with an entire band wielding spears, including the participation of women as we know from the hunting injuries of female skeletons. The megafauna die-off required hunting, instead, smaller game. Besides smaller game being leaner and so requiring extra nutrition from plant foods, it required different hunting technology. The bow and arrow had been invented earlier, but only became widespread in that period directly prior to the agricultural revolution.

    What the bow and arrow changed was hunting became gender-specific and it was possible for an individual to hunt alone. This began the myth of the lone male hunter, as it also began the myth of the stay-at-home wife and mother. At first, this in many ways gave disproportionate power to women. Wild game was an important food source, but it had lost centrality with the foods produced by women, not only from foraging but also from trapping and fishing that could be done near the village. That is probably why there was an obsession with goddesses in early agriculture. A greater proportion of calories were then coming from women. Only with the invention of the horse-drawn plow did men regain their prestige, as this agricultural innovation required greater muscle power and likely was harder to do with children around.

    WEIRD Personality Traits as Stable Egoic Structure

    Enclosure of the Mind

    Containment of Freedom

    The Agricultural Mind

    “Yes, tea banished the fairies.”

    The Drugged Up Birth of Modernity

    As you argue, it’s all about separate individuals: “The essential point here is that intellectual thinking requires a separation between thinker and thought-about (or knower and known), thus the concept of the thinker as an autonomous person — a concept that cannot coexist with mimesis in which the participants immerse themselves in each successive oral-poetic vivid episode (psychological identification, becoming many rather than one).” This mimetic and communal quality remains why religion can still be a potent force at times, for good and ill, from the civil rights movement to the MAGA evangelicals. But it’s also why the political right fears ‘mobocracy’ and protest movements with their oral-focused speeches and chanting. Like the ancient poets, there are still those who can wield the power of the spoken voice (e.g., MLK). And as with the ancient sophists, the equivalent to a state college professor, there are those who fear the unruly masses being educated, just like the elite.

    The lower classes might forget their place, which was a fear of aristocrats like Socrates and Plato. Yet if the public is not made literate, a literary culture and social order is not possible. “Havelock describes “a whole group of intellectuals in the last half of the fifth century” wielding the weapon of the primal dialectic technique of asking someone to explain what they just said, destroying the rhythm of the mimetic process, “arousing the consciousness from its dream language and stimulating it to think abstractly.” The first step in Plato’s proposed curriculum is arithmetic, because it requires problem solving rather than memorization.” It’s strange that Plato focused on arithmetic, as literacy has tended be given greater priority. The “primal dialectic technique” of provoking self-explanation seems literary, in treating one’s own words like a text to be analyzed.

    I’ve observed this pattern in those I know personally. I have a friend from Libya. He received almost no formal education and is barely literate with limited reading comprehension. He gets almost all of his info from videos, and he has a tremendous memory in repeating what he has heard, but he has severely limited capacity of being critical and analytical. Other people I know aren’t illiterate but simply don’t read much non-fiction, and I’ve noticed that such people are much more prone to the oral-and-image-based rhetorical manipulations of corporate news media. They don’t have the capacity, maybe in lacking a strong inner space and voice, to stand back and create psychological distance. Those like William Godwin understood that that education was pivotal in destroying the communal order and establishing individualism, to make possible capitalism. That is why, as an anarchist, he supported the interventions of big gov, as he realized that society-wide individualism would be a product of the state.

    Continuing with those thoughts, you wrote that, “Havelock did say early on, his thesis required a reinterpretation of Plato’s Republic, but it seems I didn’t grok at that time the scope of reinterpretation entailed. Looking back from the end of Chapter Eleven, the trial of Socrates makes a lot more sense than the way it was taught to me in school; and the “philosopher king” notion takes on a whole different character if one understands it not so much to mean “philosophers” —in the modern sense— should be in charge as people who think literately rather than orally should be in charge.” It was literacy, combined with a market economy, that created an emergent middle class with its populist demands of democracy (people power). This created not only an educated elite but a competition among them, maybe because of elite surplus which some argue as being destabilizing (Peter Turchin). Democracy was revolutionary, and the literary elites among the aristocrats weren’t happy about that.

    With class war, the aristocracy became counter-revolutionaries, at one point attempting to overthrow democracy, of which Socrates got blamed for because those following his ideas were the conspirators. One could think of Plato as among the first full-fledged political reactionaries. His ideal of philosopher kings, as soft authoritarian rulers, is what later became thought of as an enlightened aristocracy or, during the American Revolution, a natural aristocracy. Your sense of the present mirroring the past is probably because we live in this moment when Western society has barely become mass literate precisely as new media technologies became dominant. Marshall McLuhan suggest new media will result in the return of something akin to tribalism. I’m not sure that is quite right, but it will likely reassert the bundled mind and communal identities, if at a much larger and less localized scale (e.g., one’s online ‘community’ can include individuals from numerous cities, regions, and countries).

    In another section, you also touch upon thoughts that have been on my mind: “Now, Havelock paints a picture of a cadre of intellectuals in the late fifth century BCE (basically Socrates’s generation) waging guerrilla war on orality. I’ve been thinking of all these evolution-of-mind developments as inevitable natural developments, each occurring in its own time, and in the larger scheme of things presumably so they are; but in the specific event, what if these people were acting because of something they perceived about their past, that we’re missing because it wasn’t explicitly stated in the “official” record?” Over time, I’ve ever more taken the position that none of it was ever inevitable, as human nature and society is filled with immense potential, as the anthropological record indicates. Choices were actively made, but the question is why did those in power decide on a particular direction of society.

    Possibly, Socrates’ generation was similar to the generation of George Washington, Edmund Burke, and William Godwin, along with the generations immediately prior. Those 18th century thinkers and actors were responding to the still fresh memory of the English Civil War and Glorious Revolution, maybe even some historical awareness of the earlier European Peasants’ Revolts. It wasn’t revolution that destroyed the Ancien Regime. The very aristocratic elites that came out of feudalism intentionally dismantled it, which is what set the stage for revolution. So, with that in mind, what were the ancient Greek elites doing that was destroying and destabilizing the traditional order that preceded them. Consider the literati’s hatred of the poet-bards who once were among the most respected people in society. The aristocracy of classical Athens may have only recently gained greater power with the loss of oral culture’s influence. They might’ve seen it as an opportunity to establish a fully class-based society of much greater inequality and hierarchy.

    Still, as you point out, this was part of a larger context of events that transpired over centuries: “So, if they were fighting tooth and nail to encourage intellectuals —especially, in the case of Socrates’s star pupil Plato, intellectuals in charge of society— what does that suggest they thought about the cause of the Late Bronze Age collapse? … If idiotic leaders were really widespread enough to contribute significantly to that big and sudden a disaster, it would have to be something out of whack in the dynamics of the system that tended to put idiots in charge.” That would depend on what was perceived as idiotic, under what kind of conditions. It might not matter what really caused harm to those societies, as social change would be determined by perception of responsibility. As the epics were associated with the poet-bards, that might be why the later aristocrats sought to scapegoat them. The old religious order was tied up with that earlier period of violent conflict.

    Speaking of the lacuna, you suggested that the epics would be the evidence we’re looking for: “Of course, I thought to myself at this point, we can’t really know; it’s not like the ancient Greeks left us an epic account of the Mycenaean military commanders making decisions based on emotions unbridled by reason and getting people killed left and right as a result — but they did, didn’t they.” Jaynes points out that, until the late Bronze Age, there were no professional soldiers and standing armies involved in large-scale long-distance warfare. Part of it had to do with the invention of chariots and the construction of fleets of ships to make possible supply lines to support large armies beyond a single season. That also required an emergent administrative state to organize it all, which came about because of the new expansive empires, likely made possible by increased grain production. The bicameral mind only seemed to operate well in smaller communities with the upper limit being city-states. Though all of that had largely disappeared by the Homeric era, the consequences of post-bicameral tumult continued.

    In terms of the motivation of ideological battle, you argued that, “philosophy itself later lost track of its original purpose of defeating the oral mindset, thus of merely enabling abstract thoughts, and “substituted the attempt to throw off the spell of material things” [p. 250].” Of course, that would be the case. That is because literacy won and become so totalizing in its hegemonic dominance. Here in the West, we’ve had mass literacy now for centuries. And with public education for several generations, that has gone from bare functional literacy to a popular literary culture. Plus, literacy has spread into every part of the world. More books have been printed in the last quarter of a century than were printed in all of history before then. Not to mention the takeover of the written word with the internet, social media, email, and texting; if it transformed the kind of literacy. We are so immersed in the written word that many of us spend most of our days reading one kind of text or another. Literacy no longer needs to justify itself because few can imagine life without it.

    You mention that, “the shift from sound to vision, ear to eye, echo-and-response to architecture, requiring the support of a written form.” I had some thoughts about this recently. I’d describe this shift as visuo-structural. It goes along with some of my above commentary. As contrast, consider the Piraha who don’t make and use containers, don’t build walls, construct the simplest of shelter, and lack recursion. What occurred to me is that recursion allows for complex grammatical structuring, especially when applied to written texts; and think of the weird obsession that the early literary elite had with convoluted sentences built out of embedding. Taking all of this together, maybe it’s the physical structure of containment combined with the linguistic structure of containment that eventually allowed a transition from a generally contained identity to an individually contained egoic consciousness. A main tenet of Jaynes’ theory is the use and internalization of the container metaphor.

    Moving on, you stated that you had “placed the development of tense relatively late in the overall span of time assigned to orality; from the start of the Upper Paleolithic, a span just shy of forty to seventy thousand years. So, even in Greece it seems that for most of the oral period there would have been no tense. This raises the question of what oral storytelling would tend to look like without tense.” I’m not sure about early Greece, but the Piraha lack tenses and lack much in the way of words expressing temporality. Also, the Piraha have no native storytelling tradition, no mythology, and no afterlife. As Daniel Everett explains it, they live, think, perceive, and act according to an immediacy principle. They can and occasionally do repeat stories told to them, although they don’t show great interest. They don’t generally even speak narratively of their own personally remembered past. It’s just not natural to their linguistic culture (linguistic relativity?). Others have noted that recursion is essential for narratizing. And certainly recursion in literacy is what allows for an inner narratizing voice. Prior to tenses and recursion, storytelling might not have existed at all across all societies.

    I’m finally getting close to the end of your piece. “Thinking back to Jaynes’s notion of hallucinated gods, with all the rest of this to draw on, a stray thought occurs. Given Parry’s basic insight that oral epics are formulaic, and Havelock’s that this corresponds to a certain kind of thought structure, should we expect the Jaynesian gods to have spoken to people formulaically? For that matter, could it be that the trouble with the modern hallucinations is that they’re non-formulaic, that somehow this arrangement doesn’t function smoothly without the oral thought-patterns?” The formulaic component has stood out to me. It’s fundamental to what allows for an orderly society without the immense civilizational infrastructure that entirely restructures the physical world. Indigenous people carry the structuring force of culture within themselves, thus requiring encyclopedic mnemonic systems. This is why they could avoid conflict more easily, as they carried everything they needed with them, including the voices of their gods, allowing them to pick up and move on. But for modern voice-hearers in the West, their experience is not only unsupported by everything around them but is in contradiction to it, with no where else to go. They are insane because their experience doesn’t match social reality.

    Bringing this back to our present society in another way, you state that you had “already been aware the shift from orality to literacy was understood to be, at least in part, caused by a perceived shift in the nature of the underlying stable representation of knowledge, from a “writ in water” oral tradition to something rather more like “writ in stone”; and it had occurred to me that the internet age has partly destabilized this, as records in electronic form are far more vulnerable to revision or outright erasure. The social volatility of the internet has been a pretty common observation for some years now.” You’re getting more into the media studies territory of the likes of Marshall McLuhan. Whereas the philologists, generally focused on the past, might have less to tell us about what is coming. In my own writings, I’ve dubbed it the New Media Derangement Syndrome (NMDS)

    Technological Fears and Media Panics

    Battle of Voices of Authorization in the World and in Ourselves

    The Great WEIRDing of the Jaynesian Ego-Mind as a Civilizational Project

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