Plant-Based Nutritional Deficiencies

The purpose here is to highlight the nutritional deficiencies of plant-based diets but most specifically plant-exclusive diets such as veganism (important nutrients are listed below). Not all of these deficiencies involve essential nutrients, but our knowledge is limited on what is essential. There are deficiencies that will kill you quickly, others slowly, and still others that simply will cause deteriorating health or less than optimal functioning. Also, some of these nutrients or their precursors can be found in plant foods or otherwise produced by the body, but there can be several problems. The plant-based sources may be inadequate or not in the most bioavailable form, antinutrients in the plants may block the absorption of certain nutrients (e.g., phytates block mineral absorption), gut and microbiome problems related to a plant-based diet might interfere with absorption, and most people have severely limited capacity to turn certain precursors into the needed nutrients.

So, when eating a supposedly healthy diet, many vegans and vegetarians still have major deficiencies, even with nutrients that should be in their diet according to standard food intake calculations — in those cases, the nutrients are there in theory but for some reason not being absorbed or utilized. For example, raw spinach has a lot of calcium, but it is almost entirely unavailable to the body. Adding raw spinach to your smoothie or salad might be a net loss to your health, as the antinutrients will block the nutrients in other foods as well. Another factor is that, on a plant-based diet, nutrients can get out of ratio. Nutrients work together with some acting as precursors, others as catalysts, and still others like master hormones — such as vitamin K2 determining where calcium is transported to, preferably the bones as opposed to arteries, joints and the brain; or think about how the body can produce vitamin D3 but only if there is adequate cholesterol. As such, besides deficiencies, sometimes there can too much of a nutrient which interferes with another nutrient, as seen with copper in relation to zinc.

That is the advantage to an animal-based diet, which could even include a well-balanced vegetarian diet that emphasized dairy and eggs (Vegetarianism is an Animal-Based Diet), but unfortunately many vegetarians are near-vegan in limiting even those non-meat animal foods. Here is the reason why animal foods are so important. Other animals have similar nutritional needs as humans and so, when we eat animal foods, we are getting not only the nutrients our bodies need but in the required form and ratio for our own optimal functioning. Without animal foods, one has to study nutrition to understand all of this and then try to artificially re-create it through careful calculations in balancing what one eats and supplements, an almost impossible task that requires someone to have a scientific mindset. Even then, one is likely to get it wrong. Regular testing of nutritional levels would be absolutely necessary to ensure everything is going according to plan.

As for supplements and fortification, the nutrients aren’t always in the best form and so wouldn’t be as bioavailable nor would likely have all the needed cofactors in just the right amounts. Besides, a diet dependent on supplementation and fortification is not healthy by definition, in that the food itself in natural form lacksing those nutrients. The fact that most vegans in particular and vegetarians as well have to be extremely obsessive about nutrition just to maintain a basic level of health is not high praise to the health-giving benefits of such a plant-based diet — and hence the reason even vegetarians should emphasize the allowed animal foods (there are even vegans who will make exceptions for some animal foods, such as fish). This is probably why most people quit these diets after a short period of time and why most people who quit, including those who quit after years or decades, do so for health reasons. Among those who remain on these diets, their responses on surveys show that most of them cheat on occasion and so are getting some minimal level of animal-based nutrition, and that is a good thing for their health even as it calls into question the validity of health claims about plant-based diets (Being “mostly vegan” is like being “a little pregnant.”).

There has long been a bias against meat, especially red meat. It goes back to the ancient Greek thought of Galen and how it was adapted to Medieval society in being Christianized for purposes of maintaining social hierarchy and social control. This Galenic bias was carried forward in the Christian tradition and then modernized within nutrition studies through the surprisingly powerful influence of the Seventh Day Adventists who continue to fund a lot of nutritional studies to this day. This has had practical consequences. It has long been assumed, based on a theology of a sinful world, that eating animals would make us beastly. It’s similar to the ancient idea that eating the muscles or heart of a fallen warrior would make one strong or courageous. A similar logic was applied to plants, that they have inherent qualities that we can imbibe.

So, it has been long believed that plant foods are somehow healthier for both body and soul, somehow more spiritual and so would bring humans closer to God or else closer to their divine natural state before the Fall of Man. That has been the moral concern of many Christians, from Medieval Catholics to modern Seventh Day Adventists. And in secularized form, it became internalized by mainstream nutrition studies and dietary guidelines. Part of the purpose of eating plants, according to Christianized Galenism, was that a strong libido was considered bad and it was understood that a plant-based diet suppressed libido, which admittedly doesn’t sound like a sign of health but their idea of ‘health’ was very different. It was also worried that, along with firing up the libido, meat would heat up the entire body and would lead to a shorter lifespan. Pseudo-scientific explanations have been used to rationalize this theological doctrine, such as concerns about mTOR and IGF-1, although this requires contorting the science and dismissing other evidence.

The problem is this simply became built into mainstream nutritional ideology, to such an extent that few questioned it until recently. This has led to most researchers, nutritionists, dieticians, and other health experts to obsess over the nutrients in plants while overlooking the nutrients in animal foods. So, you’ll hear something along the lines of, “meat is not an important source of vitamin E and with the exception of liver, is not a particularly good source of fat-soluble vitamins” (Nutrients in Meat, from the Meat We Eat). Keep in mind that assertion comes from a project of the American Meat Science Association — not likely to be biased against meat. It’s sort of true, depending on how one defines meat. From Galenic thought, the notion of meat is still associated with red meat. It is true that muscle meat, particularly lean muscle meat, from beef, pork and veal doesn’t have much vitamin E compared to plant foods (M. Leonhardt et al, Vitamin E content of different animal products: influence of animal nutrition). This is why some vegetarians and even vegans see no contradiction or conflict, much less hypocrisy, in eating fish and fowl — culturally, these have for millennia been considered a separate category from meat.

Yet adequate amounts of vitamin E are found in many animal foods, whether or not we label them as ‘meat’: chicken, goose meat, fish, seafood, crayfish, butter, and cheese; and some vitamin E is also found in liver and eggs (Atli Anarson, 20 Foods That Are High in Vitamin E). We have to be clear what we mean by ‘meat’. On a meat-based diet, even to the degree of being carnivore, there are plentiful good sources of every essential nutrient, including vitamin E, and many that aren’t essential but highly conducive to optimal health. Besides animal foods, there is no other source of such immense nutrient-density and nutrient-biavailability. Plant foods don’t come close in comparison.

Also, as vitamin E is an antioxidant, it’s important to note that animal foods contain many other antioxidants that play a similar role in maintaining health, but animal-sourced antioxidants have been mostly ignored because they don’t fit the dominant plant-based paradigm. Plant foods lack these animal-sourced antioxidants. So why do so few talk about a deficiency in them for vegans and vegetarians? And why have researchers so rarely studied in depth the wide variety of nutrients in animal foods to determine their full health benefits? This is particularly odd when considering, as I already stated, every known essential nutrient can be found in animal foods but not in plant foods. Isn’t that an important detail? Why is there a collective silence among mainstream health experts?

Think about how plant antinutrients can block the absorption of nutrients, both in plant foods and animal foods, and so require even more nutrients to counteract this effect which might simply further increase the antinutrient intake, unless one is careful in following the food selection and preparation as advised by those like Steven Gundry (The Plant Paradox). Or think about how glucose competes with the antioxidant vitamin C causing an increase of scurvy if vitamin C is not increased, and yet a low-carb diet with far lower intake of vitamin C is not linked to scurvy — maybe the reason ancient Vikings and Polynesians could remain healthy at sea for months, but once a high-carb diet was introduced modern sailors were plagued by scurvy (Sailors’ Rations, a High-Carb Diet). Similarly, a plant-based diet in general might require greater amounts of vitamin E: “Plant-based foods have higher concentrations of vitamin E. And for good reason. A plant-based diet requires additional protection from oxidation of PUFA which Vitamin E helps provide through its antioxidant properties. It’s still found in adequate supply in meat” (Kevin Stock, Vitamins and Minerals – Plants vs Animals).

What is adequate depends on the diet. A diet low in carbs, seed oils, and other plant foods may require fewer plant-based antioxidants, especially if this is countered by an increase of animal-based antioxidants. It is reminiscent of the fiber debate. Yes, fiber adds bulk that supposedly will increase regularity, ignoring the fact that the research is divided on this topic. No doubt bulking up your poop makes you have larger poops and more often, but is that really a good thing? People on a low-residue carnivore diet more easily digest and absorb what the eat, and so they don’t have bulky poops — then again they don’t usually have constipation either, not if they’re getting enough dietary fat. The main cause of constipation is plant foods. So, why are people advised to eat more plant foods in the hope of resolving this issue caused by plant foods? It’s absurd! We keep looking at problems in isolation, as we look at nutrients in isolation (Hubris of Nutritionism). This has failed us, as demonstrated by our present public health crisis.

Let me throw in a last thought about antioxidants. It’s like the fiber issue. People on plant-based diets have contipation issues and so they eat more plant foods in the form of fiber in trying to solve the problem plant foods cause, not realizing that constipation generally resolves itself by eliminating or limiting plant foods. So, in relation to antioxidants, we have to ask ourselves what is it about our diet in the first place that is causing all the oxidative stress? Plant foods do have antioxidants, but some plant foods also cause oxidative stress (e.g., seed oils). If we eliminate these plant foods, our oxidative stress goes down and so our requirement of antioxidants to that degree also lessens. Our body already produces its own antioxidants and, combined with what comes from animal foods, we shouldn’t such excess amounts of antioxidants. Besides, it’s not clear from studies that plant antioxidants are always beneficial to health. It would be better to eliminate the need for them in the first place. Shawn Baker explained this in terms of vitamin C (interview with Shan Hussain, The Carnivore Diet with Dr. Shawn Baker MD):

“The Carnivore diet is deficient in carbohydrates and essential vitamins like Vitamin C, how do we make up for that? When I wanted to do this I was curious about this as well. You will see a number of potential deficiencies around this diet. There is no role of fibre in this diet. With Vitamin C we know there are some transporters across different cell membranes. In a higher glucose environment, Vitamin C is competitively inhibited and therefore we see less absorption of Vitamin C. We also see that interestingly human red blood cells do have the capacity to actually recycle Vitamin C which is something that not many people are aware of. One of the major function of Vitamin C is that it is an antioxidant. In low carbohydrate states our antioxidants systems particularly things like glutathione are regulated. We may obviate some of the need of antioxidants of the Vitamin C by regulating around systems in a low carb diet. Also, Vitamin C is very important in the function of carnitine which is part of the fat cycle. When we are ingesting carnitine we have actual transporters in the gut which can take up full carnosine. It is a misconception that we can only take amino acids, a number of di and tripeptide transporters that are contained within our gut. The other function of Vitamin C is when we don’t have sufficient Vitamin C relative to our needs, we start to develop symptoms of scurvy, bleeding gum problems, teeth falling out, sores and cuts won’t heal. This is all due to the collagen synthesis. If we look at Vitamin C’s role in collagen synthesis, it helps to take proline and lysine, hydroxyproline and hydroxylysine. In meat-based diet, we are getting that in ample amount. Even a steak has 3% of its content as collagen. There are all kinds of compensatory mechanisms.”

I’ll end on an amusing note. Chris Kresser wrote about the carnivore diet (Everything You Need to Know about the Carnivore Diet and How It Can Affect Your Health). Athough an advocate of low-carb diets and nutrient-dense animal foods, he is skeptical that carnivory will be healthy for most humans long-term. One worry is that there might be nutritional deficiencies, but the argument he makes is funny. He basically saying that if all one eats is muscle meat then key nutrients will get missed. Then he goes onto point out that these nutrients can be found in other animal foods, such as liver and dairy. So, his main concern about a carnivore diet is actually that people might not eat enough animal foods or rather not enough of certain animal foods. So, make sure you eat lots of a wide variety of animal foods if going full carnivore and apparently even critics like Kresser agree you’ll be fine, at least nutritionally. The problem isn’t too much animal foods but potentially too little. That made me smile.

Now to the whole point of this post. Below is a list of nutrients that are commonly deficient in those on plant-based diets, especially those on plant-exclusive diets (i.e., vegans). I won’t explain anything about these nutrients, as there is plenty of info online. But you can look to the linked articles below that cover the details.

  • Vitamin K2
  • Vitamin D3 (Cholecalciferol)
  • Vitamin A (Retinol)
  • Vitamin B12 (Cobalamin)
  • Vitamin B6 (Pyridoxine)
  • B3 (Niacin)
  • B2 (Riboflavin)
  • Calcium
  • Heme Iron
  • Zinc
  • Selenium
  • Iodine
  • Sulfur
  • DHA Omega-3 (Docosahexaenoic Acid)
  • EPA Omega-3 (Eicosapentaenoic Acid)
  • DPA Omega-3 (Docosapentaenoic Acid)
  • ARA Omega-6 (Arachidonic Acid)
  • CLA (Conjugated Linoleic Acid)
  • Phytanic Acid
  • Phosphatidylserin and other phospholipids
  • Glutathione
  • Coenzyme Q10 (CoQ10)
  • Choline
  • Cholesterol
  • Collagen
  • Taurine
  • L-Carnitine
  • Carnosine
  • Beta-Alanine (Precursor to Carnosine)
  • Complete Proteins
  • Essential Amino Acids (Creatine, Beta-Alanine, Glycine, Methionine, Tryptophan, Lysine, Leucine, Cysteine, Proline, Tyrosine, Phenylalanine, Serine, Alanine, Threonine, Isoleucine, and Valine)

Just for the sake of balance, I’ll also share a list of plant compounds that are problematic for many people — from Joe Cohen (20 Nutrients that Vegans & Vegetarians are Lacking):

  1. Lectins
  2. Amines
  3. Tannins
  4. Trypsin Inhibitors
  5. FODMAPS
  6. Salicylates
  7. Oxalates
  8. Sulfites, Benzoates, and MSG
  9. Non-protein amino acids
  10. Glycosides
  11. Alkaloids [includes solanine, chaconine]
  12. Triterpenes
  13. Lignins
  14. Saponins
  15. Phytic Acid [Also Called Phytate]
  16. Gluten
  17. Isoflavones

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Are ‘vegetarians’ or ‘carnivores’ healthier?
Gundry’s Plant Paradox and Saladino’s Carnivory
Dr. Saladino on Plant and Animal Foods
True Vitamin A For Health And Happiness
Calcium: Nutrient Combination and Ratios
Vitamin D3 and Autophagy

The Vegetarian Myth: Food, Justice, and Sustainability
by Lierre Keit

Vegan Betrayal: Love, Lies, and Hunger in a Plants-Only World
by Mara J. Kahn

The Meat Fix: How a lifetime of healthy eating nearly killed me!
by John Nicholson

The Fat of the Land/Not By Bread Alone
by Vilhjalmur Stefansson

Sacred Cow: The Case for (Better) Meat: Why Well-Raised Meat Is Good for You and Good for the Planet
by Diana Rodgers and Robb Wolf

The Carnivore Code: Unlocking the Secrets to Optimal Health by Returning to Our Ancestral Diet
by Paul Saladino

Primal Body, Primal Mind: Beyond Paleo for Total Health and a Longer Life
by Nora Gedgauda

Paleo Principles
by Sarah Ballantyn

The Queen of Fats: Why Omega-3s Were Removed from the Western Diet and What We Can Do to Replace Them
by Susan Allport

The Omega Principle: Seafood and the Quest for a Long Life and a Healthier Planet
by Paul Greenberg

The Omega-3 Effect: Everything You Need to Know About the Super Nutrient for Living Longer, Happier, and Healthier
by William Sears and James Sear

The Missing Wellness Factors: EPA and DHA: The Most Important Nutrients Since Vitamins?
by Jorn Dyerberg and Richard Passwater

Could It Be B12?: An Epidemic of Misdiagnoses
by Sally M. Pacholok and Jeffrey J. Stuar

What You Need to Know About Pernicious Anaemia and Vitamin B12 Deficiency
by Martyn Hooper

Living with Pernicious Anaemia and Vitamin B12 Deficiency
by Martyn Hoope

Pernicious Anaemia: The Forgotten Disease: The causes and consequences of vitamin B12 deficiency
by Martyn Hooper

Healing With Iodine: Your Missing Link To Better Health
by Mark Sircus

Iodine: Thyroid: The Hidden Chemical at the Center of Your Health and Well-being
by Jennifer Co

The Iodine Crisis: What You Don’t Know About Iodine Can Wreck Your Life
by Lynne Farrow

L-Carnitine and the Heart
by Stephen T. Sinatra and Jan Sinatra

Food Politics: How the Food Industry Influences Nutrition and Health
by Marion Nestle

Unsavory Truth: How Food Companies Skew the Science of What We Eat
by Marion Nestle

Formerly Known As Food: How the Industrial Food System Is Changing Our Minds, Bodies, and Culture
by Kristin Lawless

Death by Food Pyramid: How Shoddy Science, Sketchy Politics and Shady Special Interests Have Ruined Our Health
by Denise Minge

Nutrition in Crisis: Flawed Studies, Misleading Advice, and the Real Science of Human Metabolism
by Richard David Feinman

Nutritionism: The Science and Politics of Dietary Advice
by Gyorgy Scrinis

Measured Meals: Nutrition in America
by Jessica J. Mudry

(Although more about macronutrients, also see the work of Gary Taubes and Nina Teicholz. They add useful historical context about nutrition studies, dietary advice, and public health.)

20 Nutrients that Vegans & Vegetarians are Lacking
by Joe Cohen

8 Nutrients You May Be Missing If You’re Vegetarian or Vegan
by Tina Donvito

7 Nutrients That You Can’t Get from Plants
by Atli Anarson

7 Supplements You Need on a Vegan Diet
by Alina Petre

The Top 5 Nutrient Deficiencies on a Plant Based Diet
by Kate Barrington

5 Brain Nutrients That You Can’t Get From Plants
by Kris Gunnars

Vitamin Supplements for Vegetarians
by Jeff Takacs

Health effects of vegan diets
by Winston J Craig

Nutritional Deficiencies and Essential Considerations for Every Vegan (An Evidence-Based Nutritional Perspective)
from Dai Manuel

Why You Should Think Twice About Vegetarian and Vegan Diets
by Chris Kresser

Three Big Reasons Why You Don’t Want to be a Vegetarian
by Alan Sears

How to Avoid Common Nutrient Deficiencies if You’re a Vegan
by Joseph Mercola

What is Glutathione and How Do I Get More of It?
by Mark Hyman

Could THIS Be the Hidden Factor Behind Obesity, Heart Disease, and Chronic Fatigue?
by Joseph Mercola

Vegetarianism produces subclinical malnutrition, hyperhomocysteinemia and atherogenesis
by Y. Ingenbleek Y and K. S. McCully

Vegan Diet is Sulfur Deficient and Heart Unhealthy
by Larry H. Bern

Heart of the Matter : Sulfur Deficits in Plant-Based Diets
by Kaayla Daniel

Copper-Zinc Imbalance: Unrecognized Consequence of Plant-Based Diets and a Contributor to Chronic Fatigue
by Laurie Warner

Vegan diets ‘risk lowering intake of nutrient critical for unborn babies’ brains’
by Richard Hartley-Parkinson

The Effects of a Mother’s Vegan Diet on Fetal Development
by Marc Choi

Vegan–vegetarian diets in pregnancy: danger orpanacea? A systematic narrative review
by G. B. Piccoli

Is vegetarianism healthy for children?
by Nathan Cofnas

Clinical practice: vegetarian infant and child nutrition
by M. Van Winckel, S. Vande Velde, R. De Bruyne, and S. Van Biervliet

Dietary intake and nutritional status of vegetarian and omnivorous preschool children and their parents in Taiwan
C. E. Yen, C. H. Yen, M. C. Huang, C. H. Cheng, and Y. C. Huang

Persistence of neurological damage induced by dietary vitamin B-12 deficiency in infancy
by Ursula von Schenck, Christine Bender-Götze, and Berthold Koletzko

Severe vitamin B12 deficiency in an exclusively breastfed 5-month-old Italian infant born to a mother receiving multivitamin supplementation during pregnancy
by S. Guez et al

Long-chain n-3 PUFA in vegetarian women: a metabolic perspective
by G. C. Burdge, S. Y. Tan, and C. J. Henry

Signs of impaired cognitive function in adolescents with marginal cobalamin status
by M. W. Louwman et al

Transient neonatal hypothyroidism due to a maternal vegan diet
by M. G. Shaikh, J. M. Anderson, S. K. Hall, M. A. Jackson

Veganism as a cause of iodine deficient hypothyroidism
by O. Yeliosof and L. A. Silverman

Do plant based diets deprive the brain of an essential nutrient?
by Ana Sandoiu

Suggested move to plant-based diets risks worsening brain health nutrient deficiency
from BMJ

Could we be overlooking a potential choline crisis in the United Kingdom?
by Emma Derbyshire

How a vegan diet could affect your intelligence
by Zaria Gorvett

Vitamins and Minerals – Plants vs Animals
by Kevin Stock

Health effects of vegan diets
by Winston J Craig

Comparing Glutathione in the Plasma of Vegetarian and Omnivore Populations
by Rachel Christine Manley

Vegan diets are adding to malnutrition in wealthy countries
by Chris Elliott, Chen Situ, and Claire McEvoy

What beneficial compounds are primarily found in animal products?
by Kamal Patel

The Brain Needs Animal Fat
by Georgia Ede

The Vegan Brain
by Georgia Ede

Meat, Organs, Bones and Skin
by Christopher Masterjohn

Vegetarianism and Nutrient Deficiencies
by Christopher Masterjohn

Adding milk, meat to diet dramatically improves nutrition for poor in Zambia
from Science Daily

Red meat plays vital role in diets, claims expert in fightback against veganism
by James Tapper

Nutritional Composition of Meat
by Rabia Shabir Ahmad, Ali Imran and Muhammad Bilal Hussain

Meat and meat products as functional food
by Maciej Ostaszewski

Meat: It’s More than Protein
from Paleo Leap

Conjugated Linoleic Acid: the Weight Loss Fat?
from Paleo Leap

Nutritional composition of red meat
by P. G. Williams

How Red Meat Can ‘Beef Up’ Your Nutrition
by David Hu

Endogenous antioxidants in fish
by Margrét Bragadóttir

Astaxanthin Benefits Better than Vitamin C?
by Rachael Link

Astaxanthin: The Most Powerful Antioxidant You’ve Never Heard Of
from XWERKS

Antioxidants Are Bullshit for the Same Reason Eggs Are Healthy
by Sam Westreich

We absolutely need fruits and vegetables to obtain optimal antioxidant status, right?
by Paul Saladino

Hen Egg as an Antioxidant Food Commodity: A Review
Chamila Nimalaratne and Jianping Wu

Eggs’ antioxidant properties may help prevent heart disease and cancer, study suggests
from Science Daily

The Ultimate Superfood? Milk Offers Up a Glass Full of Antioxidants
by Lauren Milligan Newmark

Antioxidant properties of Milk and dairy products: a comprehensive review of the current knowledge
by Imran Taj Khan et al

Antioxidants in cheese may offset blood vessel damage
from Farm and Dairy

Identification of New Peptides from Fermented Milk Showing Antioxidant Properties: Mechanism of Action
by Federica Tonolo

Bioavailability of iron, zinc, and other trace minerals from vegetarian diets
by Janet R Hunt

Dietary iron intake and iron status of German female vegans: results of the German vegan study.
by A. Waldmann, J. W. Koschizke, C. Leitzmann, and A. Hahn

Mechanisms of heme iron absorption: Current questions and controversies
by Adrian R. West and Phillip S. Oates

Association between Haem and Non-Haem Iron Intake and Serum Ferritin in Healthy Young Women
by Isabel Young et al

Pork meat increases iron absorption from a 5-day fully controlled diet when compared to a vegetarian diet with similar vitamin C and phytic acid content.
by M. Bach Kristensen, O. Hels, C. Morberg, J. Marving, S. Bügel, and I. Tetens

Do you need fiber?
by Kevin Stock

Dr. Saladino on Plant and Animal Foods

Dr. Paul Saladino, a former vegetarian and present carnivore advocate, has a Youtube channel with many videos and he has done talks with numerous others. Following on the heels of Dr. Shawn Baker’s book on the carnivore diet, Dr. Saladino has just released his own book, The Carnivore Code. He discusses basic topics like fiber and nutrients, including nutrients that get less attention (carnitine, creatine, choline, taurine, etc; even cholesterol, necessary for brain function), but also more complex science such as IFG1, MTOR, methionine, and much else.

A major emphasis in his work is the contrast between nutrients from animal foods and antinutrients from plant foods, the latter specifically in terms of plant defense chemicals. There are many videos where he talks about this, but I’ll point to only a few of them: Do PLANT MOLECULES have SIDE EFFECTS?, AMA#2: Acid/base balance, APOE4/FTO, omega-3s, the problem with broccoli and more!, Dr Paul Saladino, Benefits of Eating Meat on The Carnivore Diet, Dangers of Lectins in Food, Are curcumin and sulforaphane good for you?, and How Broccoli is Destroying Your Thyroid! with Elle Russ.

Sally Norton is also a font of info on this topic. She likewise has tons of videos, but here is a good one: AHS17 Lost Seasonality and Overconsumption of Plants: Risking Oxalate Toxicity – Sally Norton. By the way, oxalates are just one type of antinutrient. There are many others. Dr. Saladino also goes far beyond only the antinutrients to show the research on what other plant chemicals do.

About fiber, there are several videos you could look at: Is Fiber NECESSARY for a HEALTHY Microbiome?, Paul Saladino MD on Why We Don’t Need Fiber for a Healthy MicrobiomeCarnivore Diet, Fiber, & Health, Dr. Paul Saladino: Statins, Fibre, and Mental Health, and The Great Fiber Myth – Dr. Shawn Baker, Paul Saladino MD, and Mark Sisson. By the way, you might check out some videos by others about fiber: Myths about fibre – how fibre causes constipation and bloating. and Dr. Zoë Harcombe – ‘What about fiber?’.

Maybe most interesting are his growing number of talks with those who are or were pushing plant-heavy diets. He seems to have persuaded Dr. Mercola that plants aren’t always a good thing, but there are many other great dialogues he has been involved with, such as with Dr. Terry Wahls, another former vegetarian.

Here are some of those videos: “The Carnivore Code”- Interview with Paul Saladino, MD, Is autoimmune disease REVERSIBLE? With Terry Wahls, MD, Carnivore Diet: Crazy delicious, or just plain crazy? Ep47 – Paul Saladino Interview (Gundry transcript), How to slow down aging! A conversation with David Sinclair PhD, and Carnivore vs. Vegans! A friendly debate with Cyrus and Robby from Mastering Diabetes. The last video involves two fruitarians. That is a benefit in listening to Dr. Saladino; he isn’t dogmatic nor is he trapped in an echo chamber.

He was recently on a mainstream show, The Doctors, during which he was attacked and not allowed to talk but he handled it far better than most. Here is the original video and some responses to it — one by Saladino and another by the two sisters who also were guests on the show, along with videos made by others: Is It Healthy to Eat Only Meat?, Dr. Saladino on DoctorsTV… but it’s actually watchable, My RESPONSE to THE DOCTORS!, WE WERE ON THE DOCTORS TV SHOW, Carnivore vs the Doctors and vegan fan mail, Paul Saladino vs “The Doctors” Review – VERY strong language throughout…, Carnivore advocate is ambushed on The Doctors TV show, and Carnivore Advocate Goes on ‘The Doctors’ TV Show REACTION!.

It was mainstream authority defending the status quo, at a time when nutrition studies is in the middle of a replication crisis (Felice Jacka Defends Boundaries of Allowable Dietary Thought). On the positive side, when they attack you they are forced to acknowledge you. They only acknowledge opponents when the tactic of silencing has failed. This mainstream show made many Americans aware of the carnivore diet who had never heard of it before.

* * *

I’ve previously discussed much of this kind of info and related topics. It can be found in the following posts, some of which bring in Dr. Saladino’s view:

The Agricultural Mind
Fiber or Not: Short-Chain Fatty Acids and the Microbiome
High vs Low Protein
Gundry’s Plant Paradox and Saladino’s Carnivory
Multiple Sclerosis and Carnivore Diet
Dietary Risk Factors for Heart Disease and Cancer
Hubris of Nutritionism
Sailors’ Rations, a High-Carb Diet
Are ‘vegetarians’ or ‘carnivores’ healthier?
Like water fasts, meat fasts are good for health.
Eat Beef and Bacon!
Vegetarianism is an Animal-Based Diet
Ancient Greek View on Olive Oil as Part of the Healthy Mediterranean Diet
Blue Zones Dietary Myth

Bonus video from another worthy expert: Georgia Ede: Brainwashed — The Mainstreaming of Nutritional Mythology.

Multiple Sclerosis and Carnivore Diet

Dr. Terry Wahls reversed the symptoms of multiple sclerosis in herself and, through a clinical study, in others. Her Wahls Protocol includes a ketogenic diet with nutrient-dense animal foods, but it also requires massive loads of vegetables. Yet those on the carnivore diet, typically which also means ketosis (if dairy is restricted), others have also experienced similar improvements of multiple sclerosis symptoms, either reversal or stabilization.

Maybe all those vegetables have been irrelevant. The other two main factors would either be the ketosis or all the animal-based nutrition. There would be an easy way to test this. Do a study with multiple groups: 1) ketogenic omnivores (Wahls Protocol), ketogenic vegans, ketogenic carnivores, and non-ketogenic carnivores (add in enough dairy to remain out of ketosis). Control for all other main factors. Find out the results.

My suspicion is that it’s the combination of both ketosis (ketosis promoting metabolic healing and autophagy) and animal-based nutrition (both nutrient-dense and nutrient-bioavailable), quite likely combined with elimination of oxidative and mutagenic seed oils, food additives and farm chemicals (glutamate, propionate, glyphosate, etc). Any of these alone might show some benefits. Right now, mostly all we have to go by are the many people experimenting. The studies Wahls is doing are useful (she is on her second study), but that research is only preliminary.

As further evidence of the anecdotal variety, Mikhaila Peterson has successfully treated her own autoimmune disorder. It’s not multiple sclerosis, but all autoimmune disorders have some similarities. In going ketogenic, inflammation is being eliminated. And in going carnivore, plant anti-nutrients are being eliminated. These two factors also promote other things as well, but simply what they eliminate might be most key. Inflammation, in particular, is understood in its connection to autoimmune disorders.

All the plant foods Dr. Wahls recommends, by the way, increases the antinutrients that would block absorption of nutrients and potentially cause other problems. Maybe her diet is effective as a treatment of serious disease in spite of, not because of, plant foods. The nutritious animal foods are simply at a high enough level to get beyond this obstacle. But if it is not contributing to the healing, why not eliminate them? Or is she right that all of those non-starchy veggies are helping? Until better research is done, this remains speculation on both sides of the debate.

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2/15/20 – I came across a discussion between Dr. Terry Wahls and the carnivore advocate Dr. Paul Saladino. It’s now added as the first video below.

3/2/20 -Here is a Reddit discussion thread about the Wahls and Saladino’s talk:

Paul Saladino interviews Terry Wahls (She offers to run a carnivore study if funding can be arranged)
posted by r/greyuniwave

cookoobandana

YES. I’ve been wanting these 2 worlds to collide for quite awhile now. I have immense respect for Terry Wahls but I got so much worse following her protocol and trying to eat 9 servings of vegetables a day… Even when I eventually gave up on that much veg I still kept coming back to pushing plants, thinking they were incredibly important to eat because of her story.

zoelsie

As a long time (30+yrs,) often debilitating MS’er I followed Dr Wahls protocol for years in the US and did not get significantly better, even after moving to rural France (for the great vegetables and meat as much as the facts that I have citizenship and family here. As soon as I discovered the total carnivore diet some years ago here, taking advantage of all the cheap-ish (pun) local lamb and beef w/no supplements, I GOT BETTER! (100% Remission.) Plants really are poison for me, even the best organic plants on earth from the gardens of lush Provence. Thank you for this interview and to Dr Terry Wahls for accepting this simple WOE for the terrible, misunderstood, and ever fickle “illness” that is MS.

Being “mostly vegan” is like being “a little pregnant.”

A large number of vegans and vegetarians, according to available data, occasionally cheat by eating various animal foods. I know a vegan who eats fish, which technically would make her pegan, but she is attached to identifying as vegan. The majority who try these “plant-based” diets, the data also shows, don’t maintain them beyond a short period of time. It’s a small minority that remain on such restrictive diets.

It’s yet to be demonstrated if veganism, strictly maintained with no instance of cheating, can even be maintained beyond a single generation. That infertility is so common among vegans (and also vegetarians) is an indicator that long-term survival is unlikely. That is similar to what Francis M. Pottenger Jr. discovered when cats were fed contrary to the diet they evolved eating. “By the third generation, they didn’t reach adulthood. There was no generation after that” (Health From Generation To Generation).

Another researcher from earlier last century, Weston A. Price studied healthy populations following traditional diets. In his search, he traveled to every continent and he specifically looked for those adhering to an entirely plant-based diet, but he could find no example anywhere in the world. He did find cannibals. Every healthy population ate large amounts of high quality animal foods, typically not long pig though.

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Interpreting the Work of Dr. Weston A. Price
from Weston A. Price Foundation

One of the purposes of Price’s expedition to the South Seas was to find, if possible “plants or fruits which together, without the use of animal products, were capable of providing all of the requirements of the body for growth and for maintenance of good health and a high state of physical efficiency.” 12 What he found was a population that put great value on animal foods–wild pig and seafood–even groups living inland on some of the larger islands. Even the agricultural tribes in Africa consumed insects and small fish–and these groups were not as robust as the tribes that hunted, fished or kept herds.

“It is significant,” said Price, “that I have as yet found no group that was building and maintaining good bodies exclusively on plant foods. A number of groups are endeavoring to do so with marked evidence of failure.”13

12. Weston A. Price, Nutrition and Physical Degeneration, PPNF, p 109.
13. Weston A. Price, Nutrition and Physical Degeneration, PPNF, p 282.

Studies of Relationships Between Nutritional Deficiencies and (a) Facial and Dental Arch Deformities and (b) Loss of Immunity to Dental Caries Among South Sea Islanders and Florida Indians.
by Weston A. Price

The native foods in practically all the South Sea Islands consisted of a combination of two types; namely, plant foods and sea foods. The former included the roots and tops of several tubers and a variety of fruits. The sea foods consisted chiefly of small forms, both hard- and soft-shelled, and invertebrates, together with fish of various types.

One of the purposes of this trip was to find, if possible, native dietaries consisting entirely of plant foods which were competent for providing all the factors needed for complete and normal physical development without the use of any animal tissues or product.

A special effort was accordingly made to penetrate deeply into the interior of the two largest Islands where the inhabitants were living quite remote from the sea, with the hope that groups of individuals would be found living solely on a vegetarian diet. Not only were no individuals or groups found, even in the interior, who were not frequently receiving shell fish from the sea, but I was informed that they recognized that they could not live over three months in good health without getting something from the sea. A native interpreter informed me that this had been one of the principal causes of bitter warfare between the hill tribes and coast tribes of that and all of the Pacific Islands, since the hill people could not exist without some sea foods to supplement their abundant and rich vegetable diet of the mountain country.

He informed me also that even during the periods of bitter warfare the people from the mountain district would come down to the sea during the night and place in caches delicious plants which grew only at the higher altitudes. They would return the following night to obtain the sea foods that were placed in the same caches by the people from the sea. He stated that even during warfare these messengers would not be captured or disturbed.

This guide and many others explained to me that cannibalism had its origin in the recognition by the hill people that the livers and other organs of their enemies from the coast provided the much needed chemicals which were requisite to supplement the plant foods. Several highly informed sons of cannibals and a few who acknowledged that they had eaten “long pig” advised me that it was common knowledge that the people who had lived by the sea and who had been able to obtain lots of sea foods, particularly the fishermen, were especially sought for staying a famine. One native told me of having left an Island where he was engaged in fishing because of a tip that came to him that his life was in danger because of his occupation.

Weston Price Looked for Vegans But Found Only Cannibals
by Christopher Masterjohn

This experience is, in part, a testament to the extraordinary nutrition packed into shellfish.  Melissa McEwen recently wrote about this in her post “Being Shellfish,” where she noted that some shellfish are not only more nutritious than meat, but exhibit such a dearth of evidence for sentience and the capacity for suffering that some otherwise-vegans argue that eating shellfish is consistent with the basic ethics of veganism. […]

Ultimately, what this story makes especially clear is that there is an enormous difference between a small amount of animal products and no animal products.  Being “mostly vegan” is like being “a little pregnant.”  As I pointed out in my response to Dr. T. Colin Campbell and my review of Dr. Joel Fuhrman’s Eat to Live, animal products that constitute two percent or ten percent of a person’s diet may make or break the healthfulness of the diet, especially if that small percentage is something incredibly nutrient-dense like clams or oysters.

If someone achieves vibrant health on a vegan diet, I will be happy for them.  We should face the facts, however, that humans with limited access to animal products have often gone to great lengths to include at least some animal products in their diet.  And they’ve done that for a reason.

Vegetarianism is an Animal-Based Diet

“Some cultures like the Plains Indians, like the Lakota, they lived mostly on Buffalo. And they were the longest lived people in history. More centenarians per capita than any other population at the turn of the century.”

Dr. Mark Hyman mentioned that as a side comment, in a talk with Tom Bilyeu (27 minutes into the video below). This caught my attention for the obvious reason. The Lakota, on a carnivore diet as they were in the 19th century, hold the world historical record for the longest lived population. Let’s give credit where it’s due. And the credit goes to those nutrient-dense buffalo that gave up their lives for the greater good of the Lakota.

But the thing that surprised me is that Hyman brought this up at all. He is not a carnivore advocate. In fact, he was advising against it. He isn’t even particularly paleo in his dietary views. Of the alternative health doctors, he is one of the more well known and one of the more mainstream. I wouldn’t exactly say he is conventional, although he doesn’t tend to stray far into extreme dietary regimens. His comment was a bit out of character.

I looked it up and found where he spoke of it in one of his books: Eat Fat, Get Thin (at the beginning of chapter 7). That passage gives more context there for why he highlights that exemplary population. He brings up another long-lived population, the Seventh Day Adventists who are vegetarians. “What gives?” he asked. “Meat or veggies? Maybe we’re asking the wrong question. The answer seems to be that it is not the meat or the veggies, but the sugar and refined carbs that are part of the typical meat eater’s diet and our highly processed inflammatory diet that we should be concerned with.”

That makes more sense of why he was interested in the Lakota. He presents two diets that most people would take as extreme and then seeks a moderate position. Then he concludes that it isn’t what either diet includes but what they both exclude. That is a fair enough point (reminiscent of Catherine Shanahan’s assessment of industrial seed oils in Deep Nutrition; see Dr. Catherine Shanahan On Dietary Epigenetics and Mutations). The same basic argument comes up in an article on his official website, Is Meat Good or Bad for You?. He states that the “whole carnivore-vegan debate misses the real point”.

Sure, it misses the point. But did you see the sleight-of-hand he did there. He switched the frame from a carnivore-vegetarian debate to a carnivore-vegan debate. That is problematic, since vegetarianism and veganism are extremely different. Vegetarianism is animal-based omnivorous diet. It allows animal foods such as eggs and dairy (some even include seafood). If a vegetarian so desired, they could eat almost entirely animal foods and remain vegetarian. That is not possible with veganism that entirely excludes animal foods of all varieties (ignoring vegans who likewise make exceptions).

In comparing long-lived carnivores and long-lived vegetarians, maybe there is more going on than the unhealthy processed foods that their diets lack. The early Lakota obviously were getting high-quality and highly nutritious animal foods, but the same could be true of the vegetarians among Seventh Day Adventists. Both could be getting high levels of fat-soluble vitamins, along with other animal-sourced nutrients such as EPA, DHA, choline, biotin, etc. A vegan lacks all of these without artificial sources of non-food supplementation. That isn’t a minor detail.

We have no comparable vegan population that has been studied or about which we have a historical data. Interestingly, veganism didn’t exist as a diet until a Seventh Day Adventist received it as a message from God. Yet even to this day, there are no significant number of vegans among Seventh Day Adventists or any other population, much less vegans who have been on the diet for their entire life or even multiple generations. There is no such thing as a long-lived vegan population. In fact, few people who start a vegan diet remain on it for long. We have no clue what would happen to an entire population maintained on veganism for their entire lives. It’s a complete unknown. But what we do know is that populations that allow animal foods, from carnivore to vegetarian, can maintain good health and can produce centenarians.

This gets overlooked in mainstream debate where vegetarianism and veganism are conflated as plant-based diets. That confusion is purposely promoted by vegans (e.g., the documentary The Game Changers) who don’t want a public discussion about animal foods, especially not nutrient-dense animal foods as part of regenerative farming, and so vegans want to dismiss all animal foods as factory-farmed ‘meat’ supposedly destroying the world. For some reason, many experts like Dr. Hyman have fallen into this framing, a framing by the way that corporate interests have likewise promoted (Dietary Dictocrats of EAT-Lancet).

If vegetarianism is to be lumped with veganism as plant-based, then we are forced to be honest in admitting that most modern diets are plant-based, including the paleo diet and the Standard American diet. Most people eat foods consisting primarily of plant-based ingredients. Just look at the wide variety of junk food and other prepackaged foods that are largely or entirely made from plants. Commercial candy, snack mixes, potato chips, crackers, cookies, breads — all typically vegan and the few that aren’t barely have any animal-based ingredients in them. Most Americans eat these foods all day long. Their cupboards at home and their desk drawer at work are filled with them, always ready at hand when those addictive cravings hit for the next hit of starchy carbs and sugar.

Also, the supposedly ‘healthy’ foods people start their day off with — breakfast, the so-called most important meal of the day — are mostly plant foods (toast, muffins, bran cereal, granola bars, oatmeal, fruit, etc), maybe with some dairy added but even plant fake milks and fake butter is putting a major dent in the dairy industry, having recently put some dairy companies out of business, despite the fact that research shows that they are less healthy than their dairy equivalents. Even the most meat-loving Americans eat massive loads of grains, potatoes, table sugar, high fructose corn syrup, seed oils, etc in a thousand different forms and all of them destructive to health. Think of all that goes with a hamburger at a fast food restaurant: bread, pickles, maybe onions, ketchup, mustard, french fries, soda pop, and maybe a desert item — and don’t forget, Supersize that!

Is that really animal-based? No one honestly could claim it is. This plant-based Standard American diet is one of the great successes of big ag and big food industrial complex. Yet there is still more propaganda for a “plant-based” diet in pushing people to eat more plant foods (Ethan Varian, It’s Called ‘Plant-Based,’ Look It Up). But that demonstrates how, other than describing veganism, the label of “plant-based” is next to meaningless or not particularly useful in distinguishing between common diets, much less distinguishing between which modern diets are supposedly health and which supposedly unhealthy. Still, it is useful in distinguishing between most modern diets and most traditional diets, since veganism is a modern invention that didn’t exist until the late 19th century. For example, studies show that the majority of hunter-gatherers, even those surrounded by plants, don’t adhere to a plant-based diet since they get most of their energy and nutrients from animal foods.

So, what are we pretending this fake debate is about? And what is it really about? I can’t answer that for others, but here is my simple point. Most of the essential nutrition people get from their diet comes from animal foods, not plant foods. This is the reason that vegans are among the most malnourished groups, as shown in numerous studies, with high rates of mental illness, infertility, etc. Yet those on animal-heavy diets that exclude the industrially-produced plant foods tend to be in great health. What distinguishes a vegetarian from a vegan is precisely that one eats nutrient-dense and nutrient-bioavailable animal foods and the other doesn’t. That makes all the difference in the world.

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