Racists Losing Ground: Moral Flynn Effect?

I’ve been ‘debating’ with the new variety of racist who denies being racist. He claims that it isn’t his fault that he is prejudiced against blacks, because he believes their supposed inherent inferiority means they don’t deserve to be treated as equal.

See? He isn’t racist. He is just being realistic. It’s race realism.

Then again, I’m not sure this kind of racism is genuinely new. Your average Klansman or slave owner probably never thought of themselves as racists. They too surely thought they were being realistic. It was just the way the world was. The races were distinctly different. Some people were just better than others from birth. It requires no modern understanding of genetics to think this way.

Anyway, what blows my mind about this ‘realism’ is how unrealistic it is. This guy will point to a few facts and argue it proves he is right. Yet at the same time he will dismiss or simply ignore the dozens of sources of data that I offer. Then later on he will act like all that contrary info doesn’t exist.

It’s a strange cognitive blindness. In some ways, I think he is absolutely sincere in his unacknowledged racism. He isn’t being a troll. He just lacks any sense of objectivity. He simply cannot see what doesn’t fit his worldview. It is the ultimate form of political correctness. He doesn’t merely deny the validity or moral worth of what he disagrees with, for he denies its very existence. What isn’t politically correct in his mind has no compelling sense of ‘reality’ in his experience.

At times, I’d call this willful ignorance. But as I’ve come to believe, I doubt that such people have enough self-awareness to be willful about much of anything. It is so deep in their psyche that it isn’t a decision they make. Their brains are straight-up incapable of processing divergent information.

He is a perfect example of confirmation bias and the backfire effect, which according to studies does strongly correlate to social conservatism and prejudice. One of the saddest results of this is that it has been demonstrated that white people, when presented with evidence of racism, become more racially biased (and undoubtedly, along with it, more socially conservative).

I’d bet a similar pattern is even found with white liberals. It might be along the lines of how liberals who saw video of the 9/11 attacks became more supportive of Republican policies of War on Terrorism. Liberalism gives some protection against such reactionary stances, but even liberalism has a tough time resisting the persuasion of fear.

The difference is important, though, in that conservatives live in a near permanent state of fear that is just below the surface. This takes the form of a background sense of anxiety, a need for order, and a strong disgust response. It is why social conservatism isn’t just correlated to prejudice, but also repulsion toward rotten fruit and hypochondria.

It is also why social conservatives and racists have on average lower IQs. In the studies, it is shown that conservatives have less capacity for abstract thought and cognitive load. To put it simply, they can’t deal well with either complex thought processes or anything that demands too much simultaneous cognitive activity.

This is why conservatives prefer highly focused activities. Conservatives do have a talent for excluding things from their focus, what is called a thick boundary (and for some activities this is an advantage; e.g., surgery). This is obviously related to such things as racism and xenophobia, as a thick boundary also means excluding people from their psychological experience and social identity.

Categories seem more rigid to those on the political right, and racists embody this most clearly. They take reification to heart. An idea like race is never just an idea to them. It doesn’t matter to them that a scientific consensus has formed in support of the view that the folk taxonomy of races is a social construct, rather than a scientifically valid category.

Those on the political right are constantly complaining about liberal political correctness. I’m not saying that political correctness isn’t found on the left, but I don’t think that is what is fueling the complaint. There is an obvious component of projection involved.

I’m not being politically correct when I disagree with racists. I’m not denying the data they cherrypick. I simply point out that they are ignoring a lot of data and alternative interpretations. The data doesn’t speak for itself. There is nothing about the data that forces one to become a racist. Prejudice is what we bring to the data, not what the data proves.

I’ve often argued with racists that I’m not arguing for any particular position. I don’t have a dogmatic ideology to defend, as does the racist. I’m open to multiple perspectives. I’m even open to genetics and culture playing a role, but I’m also open to there being a complex interplay between those factors and everything else, from epigenetics to environmental conditions. Anyone who has to defend a preconceived conclusion and deny all that contradicts it isn’t taking the issue seriously on its own terms.

The problem is there isn’t an even playing field in such ‘debates’. The average non-racist is more intelligent than the average racist. It isn’t even about education, as even when confounding factors such as education are controlled for, this IQ disparity persists. Even more well educated racists tend to have lower IQs than those of comparable education levels.

The ironic part of this is that this phenomenon is largely environmental. As Stephanie Pappas over at Live Science explained:

“People with lower cognitive abilities also had less contact with people of other races.

“”This finding is consistent with recent research demonstrating that intergroup contact is mentally challenging and cognitively draining, and consistent with findings that contact reduces prejudice,” said Hodson, who along with his colleagues published these results online Jan. 5 in the journal Psychological Science.”

So, interacting with those who are different not only decreases prejudice but also increases intelligence. The two are inseparable. This supports the argument for the Moral Flynn Effect, rising cognitive capacity parallels rising moral capacity, for both depend on brain health and mental development.

The other irony is that it is low IQ racists who are prone to dismiss blacks because of their lower on average IQs. The two demographics are similar, as both demographics have higher rates of social conservatism. The hatred racists feel toward blacks probably is closely linked to an awareness of their similarities. It’s the reason my working class grandfather hated blacks. It’s why so many groups in American society have clung to their group identities, of course seeing their group as better than all others.

Social conservatism also correlates to lower economic class. When one lacks economic security, a sense of group solidarity becomes all the more important, be it solidarity of race, ethnicity, religion, or whatever. Furthermore, the conditions of being on the poorer end of the scale are less conducive toward optimal brain development. The lower classes are more likely to have nutritional deficiences, to live in food deserts, to miss meals because of lack of money, to be exposed to toxic environments, to experience more social stress and child abuse, etc. Studies again and again show the massive impact this has on the developing brain.

An example of this is that social conservatives, both white and black, have stronger support for spanking children. Studies have shown that spanking children correlates to lower IQ. I’m not sure the causal link is proven, but it seems plausible that the regular stress of being hit by one’s parents could cause stunting of cognitive development. It is known that other forms of stress have a direct causal impact on brain growth.

Sure, poor minorities get hit the worst by these dire conditions. But it’s not as if all whites are middle and upper class. Poor whites show all the same kinds of cognitive issues and social problems.

Racism is a bit different, though. The more overt forms of bigotry are more common among the lower classes. Yet, even when poverty is controlled for, racists still show lower IQs. Other aspects of the social environment are just as important as poverty. For example, white flight to the suburbs and later gentrification created the conditions of low diversity, the very factor most closely associated with prejudice. What these wealthier whites share with the poorer whites is this racial homogeneity of their respective communities, as even poor whites tend not to live around as many blacks, poor or otherwise.

On the opposite side, it doesn’t take wealth to make someone more likely to be socially liberal as an adult. It only requires a diverse environment in childhood, especially in the context of a large peer group. The more friends a child has and the more diverse are those friends the more that the child will likely be socially and cognitvely challenged, which is to say that later on they will more likely be less racist and more intelligent, specifically fluid intelligence that includes abstract thinking skills.

When dealing with racists, you are on average dealing with people who have less cognitive capacity. They aren’t pretending to not understand what seems obvious to the non-racist. They really don’t understand.

Dogmatic ideology and groupthink are heuristics. They are ways to simplify thinking. When someone has less capacity for complex thought and abstract thought, they need to rely more on heuristics. A lower IQ racist doesn’t treat people as individuals, which would require greater cognitive load than they are capable of. Instead, they just have to see the outward physical features and apply the appropriate ideological category. This allows for easy pre-formed responses to complex realities.

The Moral Flynn Effect gives us some hope. Even the average conservative has a higher IQ than in the past. They are also less overtly bigoted. I think there is a connection between the two. Racism, if it is to continue to decrease, will have to lessen across generations. Those who are racist right now will likely remain racist, but their children will on average be slightly less racist than they are. This is particularly true as the younger generations move into more diverse urban areas.

However, there are other factors moving in the opposite direction. Some police departments are intentionally refusing to hire anyone with IQs that are too high. This means that they are purposely selecting for police officers who will be more prejudiced. Research has also confirmed that police with less education are more likely to abuse their authority and to support violent tactics used in their departments. It is disturbing to consider that the average police officer has an IQ lower than that of the average secretary and the police profession has an IQ range about the same as that of auto mechanics.

It’s unsurprising that one of the results seen is all the data showing that police have racial biases, which they act on (e.g., more likely to shoot an unarmed black person than an armed white person, and this with the data showing whites are more likely to carry illegal weapons). I’m willing to bet the higher IQ officers act in less biased ways. The problem is that policing plays right into racist beliefs. Racially biased cops arrest more blacks even for crimes whites commit at higher rates. Then racist whites point to this arrest data as proof blacks are more violent and criminal.

An interesting point to consider is that studies show, as lower educated police are more abusive, lower educated and lower IQ people in general are more abusive. Most hate crimes are racially motivated. I’m sure lower IQ racists are on average more likely to be violent and criminal, or at the very least more condoning of the violence used against minorities (both private and state-sanctioned). Stand-your-ground laws, for example, have been shown to increase the number of blacks who get legally killed and the number of whites who get away with such murders. Of course, social conservatives, in particular the most racially biased, are fine with this.

There isn’t much we can do about the present generation of racists. The best response is to promote the factors that decrease the dynamic of low intelligence and high prejudice. For certain, we should make sure that the most important positions in society are filled by the most intelligent people, even as we seek to raise up the intelligence of the entire population.

I disagree with race realists that IQ is genetically determined. Even the average low IQ of racists isn’t simply a fate we must accept. Racists are as much victims of their environments as are the minorities they are racist against.

* * * *

Bright Minds and Dark Attitudes:
Lower Cognitive Ability Predicts Greater Prejudice Through Right-Wing Ideology and Low Intergroup Contact
by Gordon Hodson and Michael A. Busseri

Do Racism, Conservatism, and Low I.Q. Go Hand in Hand?
Lower cognitive abilities predict greater prejudice through right-wing ideology.
by Goal Auzeen Saedi

Low IQ & Conservative Beliefs Linked to Prejudice
by Stephanie Pappas

Intelligence Study Links Low I.Q. To Prejudice, Racism, Conservatism
by Rebecca Searles

Liberal or Conservative: Study Finds Childhood Influence
Did you talk back to your parents? Were you fearful or focused?
by U.S. News

White People Are Fine With Laws That Harm Blacks
The futility of fighting criminal justice racism with statistics.
by Jamelle Bouie

The Science of Why We Don’t Believe Science
How our brains fool us on climate, creationism, and the vaccine-autism link.
by Chris Mooney

High IQ = Liberal, Atheist, Monogamous
by James Joyner

Can Someone Be Too Smart To Be A Cop?
By Katie Rucke

Too smart to be a good cop
By Razib Khan

Police Brutality and Deadly Force; How Bias, Power and Lower IQs Kill
by Thomas Parisi

Ferguson And Keeping High-IQ Folks Out Of The U.S. Police Force
by Gary Robinson

Do You Have A High IQ Score And Want To Be A Cop?… Forget It!
Submitted by SadInAmerica

Modern IQ ranges for various occupations
By IQ Comparison Site

Average IQ by occupation (estimated from wordsum scores)
by Audacious Epigone

The Impact of Higher Education on Police Attitudes Regarding Abuse of Authority
by Cody Webb Telep

Use of Force in Minority Communities is Related to Police Education, Age, Experience, and Ethnicity
by Christopher Chapman

284 thoughts on “Racists Losing Ground: Moral Flynn Effect?

  1. Not she ey but I thought of j reading this

    You know, I used to get upset over the seeming obliviousness of asinine slacktivists too, but I eventually realized that perception is reality for most folks.

    Click to access 2950993%5B1%5D.pdf

    Even when parties have the same information, they will come to different conclusions about what a fair settlement would be and base their predictions of judicial behavior on their own views of what’s fair.
    Like most disputes in the real world, the existence of multiple arguments, pro and con, for each side introduces the possibility of self-serving bias by allowing subjects to focus on, or weight, differentially arguments favoring themselves over the other party.
    This hullabaloo over Eddie Huang is a great litmus test for Asian Americans. If you’re on Eddie’s side, it shows me that fundamentally, you root for Asian Americans and support our cause, so you’re willing to forgive minor mistakes in rhetoric because the overall message is correct.
    If you’re on the side of these wannabe pseudo-feminists and social injustice warriors, it shows me you’ve internalized the prejudice of mainstream Western society towards Asians, and regardless of your protests to the contrary, you actually root for the other side like some dipshitted Uncle Chan. There’s no arguing with people like this because they’ve already mentally separated themselves from their identity as Asian Americans….. Just troll the shit outta them for your own amusement, you ain’t gonna change anyone’s mind.

  2. I have always admired how black people rise up together to take a stand on injustices that they face. No matter if the person they’re taking a stand for is in the wrong or right, they’ll back them regardless. That’s something to admire. And I mean that.
    Now of course, we should remember how little white America respects black people. These riots, while a display of solidarity and force, end up being completely ineffective.
    What to take from all this? At the very least we should all rise together and make some fucking noise when an Asian-American or Asian citizen in the United States faces crime.

    • Black activism has always been born out of poverty, oppression, and desperation. Their backs were against the wall and so they lashed out. No one should desire that kind of solidarity created by lack of opportunity to do or be anything else, even as one admires the moral outrage that fuels it.

      Blacks or any other minority group can’t force whites to change. Either whites will somehow come to terms with their own issues or else white supremacy will grow less irrelevant over time as the white majority shrinks. This is a point Ta-Nehisi Coates makes in his recent book, Between the World and Me.

      Blacks have always been playing a waiting game, their faith being built on endurance and patience, because they had no other choice. It was activism built on necessity of cold reality, not romanticism of noble ideals of solidarity and struggle. No one would willingly choose the strategies that blacks have been forced to take up. As MLK explained, “a riot is the language of the unheard.” Not just unheard, I would emphasize, but violently silenced for centuries.

      Asian-Americans simply haven’t had that kind of experience. That is why one doesn’t hear of them rioting. Asian-Americans do get heard, even by white reactionaries. Maybe it’s not how some Asian-Americans would prefer to get heard, but nonetheless it is a pathway to (grudging) inclusion not available to blacks.

  3. I agree with all of what’s being put here, and I’m going to add one more point. This is from a Chinese POV, but I hope there are similarities with other Asian countries.
    The fobs do NOT see Asians in the west as their own people. Simple as that. In their eyes, we’re already American, Canadian, whereas they are still the countrymen of their origins. A Chinese fob is Chinese, an ABC is American. Why would they care if something happens to us? We’re not their brethren.
    In Chinese, there is a clear distinction between the two. The Chinese are 中国人,aka People of China, while the Chinese everywhere are 华侨,aka Chinese ethnic. It should also be noted that Chinese people don’t really care about the nationality of someone, but instead the ethnicity. They will always view you as your ethnic.
    But ForgotMyNameGG! In that case, why don’t the Chinese view us ABC’s as their own? We’re all Chinese!
    This ties into a couple of factors. The one I will focus on, and in my opinion the most important, is that throughout modern Chinese history (20th century), overseas Chinese pretty much ditched China to form their own version of China in other areas. Especially during the formulaic years of the PRC, the overseas Chinese were not very sympathetic to China to say the least (Taiwan, Singapore, etc). This is of course due to the political stance of China, but I won’t go into the can of worms that is Maoism. As a result, the PRC was deeply distrustful of all overseas Chinese, until the reforms of Deng Xiaoping. Even now, Chinese people get shit-talked by westernized Chinese, HKers, Singaporeans, Taiwanese all the time. Doesn’t really help the situation.
    This is not to say that Chinese don’t care about overseas Chinese. After the Indonesian massacres of Chinese ethnics in the 90’s, a lot of Chinese citizens heavily criticized the government’s inability to take action against Indonesia. There was a strong sentiment of letting the indonesian Chinese return back home to China.
    Chinese people are fiercely nationalistic. So when they see overseas Chinese talking shit about them as well as China, the overseas Chinese are viewed as traitors who are no longer Chinese.
    To sum it all off, I will expand upon OP’s thoughts to make a concise list of why fobs don’t give a shit about us.
    We’re two different groups of people. We don’t care for them, they don’t care about us.
    Fobs view themselves as Chinese, not American, why would they care about not being fully accepted. That was never their goal.
    If they view themselves as Chinese, it means they’re part of the majority Han that is china even if they’re in the west. What minority experience? Their home is in China.
    Fobs nowadays are able to fuck off back to China if shit turns south. They are not poor refugees. This is a concept that we have to understand. This is the difference between us and them. Our home is in the west. Their home is the east.
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    [–]globetrottingazn 3 points an hour ago
    It’s sad/interesting to see how many overseas Chinese talk shit about their motherland and distance themselves from it, while in contrast, most overseas Koreans and Japanese abroad are extremely proud of their home countries and love associating themselves with them. Like I know someone who is half-white and half-Japanese, but this guy is extremely pro Japanese and loves Japanese culture, products, and cars, and makes an effort to befriend Japanese FOBS in America. And this guy is a Hapa. Meanwhile, I cringe everytime see a HKer posting on Facebook about the latest “offense” from the mainland.
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    [–]easternenigma 1 point an hour ago
    On the other hand I know ABT who are super pro Taiwan. I think it has more to do with the perceived backward nature of certain “homeland” countries. Not all ethnic Chinese love mainland China for obvious reasons. It has nothing to do with trying to distance themselves from being ethnic Chinese but the fact that mainland China is CCP which they don’t like for political reasons.
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    [–]disman2345 1 point 57 minutes ago
    Oversea Koreans and Japanese are looked down for being different from native Koreans or Japanese but they are still proud to be Koreans or Japanese.
    Chinese on the otherhand likes to be different, is it because Chinese is too common? Maybe because the old immigrants in KH and Singapore see the new chinese immigrants as a threat because being chinese, they know the competitiveness of chinese people thriving in foreign countries.
    HK is a city state if 7 million. It is a tiny bubble, do they really hate chinese people like ethnic chinese people by calling them locust? or is it just political? i know it is also economical and cultural because HK was separate from china for some time but the people who went there came from the mainland.
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    [–]badlores 1 point 14 minutes ago
    That’s some sad fucking shit. In the western WM’s eyes we’re NEVER American.
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    [–]easternenigma 1 point an hour ago
    Fobs nowadays are able to fuck off back to China if shit turns south. They are not poor refugees. This is a concept that we have to understand. This is the difference between us and them. Our home is in the west. Their home is the east.
    This is very limited thinking that a lot of asian-americans have when it comes to identity. It’s possible to straddle both worlds. It’s just that most AA don’t have the mindset to do so because of various issues within their own identity.
    The west is no more my permanent home than the east is. I choose where I want to be.
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    [–]ForgotMyNameGG 3 points an hour ago
    The west is no more my permanent home than the east is. I choose where I want to be.
    That’s because I assume you have an understanding of Chinese cultural norms and a good grasp of the language.
    The truth is most AA do not. They don’t know shit about what goes in China, they speak subpar Chinese, and they would absolutely not fit in China because of their perceived western superiority complex.
    It’s just that most AA don’t have the mindset to do so because of various issues within their own identity.
    Agree. And I’m going to refute that mindset as well as identity issues are not small tasks to overcome. Straddling both worlds is not easy.
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    [–]easternenigma 4 points an hour ago
    What it boils down to is that this is largely the fault of the asian-american cultural mindset and the upbringing of a lot of AA’s which can’t be blamed on “fobs” or original asian culture.
    A lot of asian-americans have wacked out identity issues and internalize racism. This is why we have these discussions to begin with.
    This is why asian-american culture needs a change in this mentality first and foremost. The fob/AA dichotomy is so silly because AA’s really have no reason to have a superiority complex..it’s just all internalized racism. The Uncle Chan thinking he’s on top when he’s in fact really way down on the bottom even compared with fobs who still retain the original culture.
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    [–]ForgotMyNameGG 2 points an hour ago
    What it boils down to is that this is largely the fault of the asian-american cultural mindset and the upbringing of a lot of AA’s which can’t be blamed on “fobs” or original asian culture.
    Spot fucking on.
    permalinksaveparentreportgive goldreply

    • It reminds me of the immigrant experience of the British and other Europeans. The American colonists stopped thinking of themselves as English or whatever. Those back in England also stopped thinking of them as English. That was part of the conflict. Paine made that argument explicit and he was a born Englishman.

      Many Europeans to this day find it odd and irritating that Americans will claim to be ‘German’ or ‘Italian,’ simply because many generations ago one of their ancestors came from the Old World. Nationality trumps ethnicity. A large number of American soldiers fighting the German Nazis were German-Americans.

      Likewise, if the US ever goes to war against China, Chinese-Americans will play a key role as soldiers, interpreters, and spies. The Chinese nationals and their government have good reason to mistrust Chinese-Americans, as the Italian government mistrusted Italian-Americans who used their mafia ties in Italy to undermine Italy fascism from within.

  4. Not sure wu but the last paragraph made me think of J

    “As someone with a very beautiful FOB mother and a FOB father, who despite being highly accomplished, good looking, and tall, has complained about White men hitting on his (then-young) wife in front of him, I think we should cut FOBs a little slack. They don’t understand the culture here, and are trying to get a foothold in the West. They are coming from a century of degradation of Asian lands by Western powers: they are used to the West coming in and doing as they pleased in their native countries. In fact, they are coming to the West probably because their situation here is better than the situation in their native land, so there is probably some inferiority feelings going on there. We need to be strong examples to FOBs to show them that they needn’t take shit.
    A personal example that comes to mind is several African guys that I knew when I was growing up. These guys were FOBs and REFUSED to be identified with Black Americans. They absolutely did not want to be associated with mainstream Black culture or the perceptions of Blacks in this country. Now, after Obama is President, I run into some of these guys, and their attitude is totally changed. They get it now. They know they are all in the same boat together, and they don’t need to prove to the White man that they’re not “one of the bad ones”. This applies to us, too. Strong Asian-Americans can be good examples to Asian FOBs that they don’t have to take shit just because they are immigrants or because they are Asian.”

    • That is precisely what makes Asian-Americans more similar to the pattern of German-Americans, Italian-Americans, and Irish-Americans. They were all in an odd position during the world war era. Neither fully trusted by either side, but sought to be used by both sides.

      Quite a few German-Americans were also put into internment camps, although it was less systematic because there was simply too many German-Americans to target them all. There was good reason for this, as German-Americans in some cases did act as terrorists in maintaining their loyalty to Germany.

      Fewer Irish-Americans had any interest in terrorizing Americans, but they did want to undermine our alliance to the UK and so blew up US ships that were sending supplies to the British. The Italian-American Mafia, as I mentioned, was enlisted by the US government because the Italian fascists were seen as a common enemy.

      Blacks never dealt with this issue. This is because they were never an immigrant group for the most part. They are mostly the descendants of slaves with no surviving ethnic identity. Blacks are more deeply Americanized than most whites, as their family lines go further back into American history than that of most whites.

    • I don’t find that surprising. Many complain about American education. I know that I do. But it is always good to keep things in perspective. The education system is far advanced from what it used to be. Also, far more Americans now graduate high school and college than ever before. Furthermore, the material students deal with these days is immense more complex and challenging than a few generations ago.

  5. Even the “learn-ed” racists do not seem to understand their “science.”
    HBDers do not understand heritability. The basic error is to conflate heritability with “genetic.” Another basic error is to conflate narrow sense and broad-sense heritability. Another basic error is failure to realize the existence of selection limits.

    HBDers also do not understand evolution. For example, intense selection on a trait removes genetic variance. Further, more complex traits have lower beneficial mutation rates. So, traits with low beneficial mutation rates and heavy selection are not likely to vary much between populations and indeed, maybe even individuals. HBDers tend to repeat arguments from Jensen; one of them on this point is “if the races can differ on X, Y, and Z, why not intelligence?” Such an argument is compelling ONLY if one has no idea about the foregoing basic science.

    I explain this and other facts to them and they simply do not understand. They respond with vitriol and mischaracterize my statements. For example, if I say that no replicated genetic variants for IQ have been found explaining variation in the normal range and that the trait likely exhibits low genetic variability, this is strawmanned as “you think there are no genes for intelligence or IQ.”

    • Hey Swank! You had asked about a comment a while back. I think it was in the spam box and I finally noticed it. After approving it, I lost track of which post it was at. Maybe this was that comment, as I recall you saying it was about HBD.

      Anyway, this is a good comment. Finding it here, I wanted to respond. I apologize for taking so long. I always got the sense that many HBDers simply don’t want to understand. They already have their ideological answer. Complex understanding of science would just complicate it too much.

      I’ve often pointed out that HBDers don’t understand heritability. I only have a basic compehension of it myself and yet I apparently know more than is demonstrated in any HBD discussion I’ve ever seen.

      It’s funny that I recently tweeted something about genetic determinists not understanding heritability, and guess who favorited that tweet. It was hbdchick. I used to comment on her blog for a while, but I finally got irritated by the idiocy. It seems to me that hbdchick is wasting her intelligence and talent on HBD blogosphere, which tends to attract a lot of strange people who only have the loosest grasp of science.

      I hope you see my response here. I didn’t mean to ignore you all this time.

  6. In order for asians to reach the top, we must assimilate some aspects of american culture, because just dominating academics (which not all asians do), will not get you there. I think the situation is changing, as Microsoft just hired an indian CEO and Youtube has an asian founder.
    It is very possible to get asian leadership in schools, without necessarily having a strong and organized asian student organization, even though I have seen strong ASO/ASAs at a number of universities.
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    [–]Chinaproper_b_wayne 3 points 6 months ago
    Valid analysis. Very cool headed, non-BS-PC way of looking at racial dynamics.
    I agree we really don’t have a strong political identity. We don’t seem to react strongly to attacks against the group.
    (1) Our Asian American identity is quite new. In Asia, the pan-Asian identity is simply very weak or non-existent, mainly due to historical beef between the Asian countries or retarded snobby elitism. Even in the west, unlike the white identity, which formed a long ass time ago in the age of European dominance, or the black identity, which form in response to slavery, oppression and discrimination, Asian identity really didn’t have time to form until in the recent years. We only begin to recently realize that causal racism is damaging and unacceptable. We are only slowly beginning to disillusion from the promise that white society and “rule of law” will somehow protect our interests without having a strong political identity/organizations ourselves.
    (2) I think our identity still have half its foot in native Asian identity, instead of the Asian immigrant identity. Especially the 1st gen elder immigrants are stuck with the native Asian mindset and react angrier towards attacks/offense towards their native country by other Asian countries, rather than attacks/offense towards their new immigrant group identity. So it is fine if other Asian Americans get screwed over. Some might even laugh.
    (3) I think 1st gen Asian immigrant are selected to be the “swallow any bitterness due to racism, work on yourself, don’t care about fucked up world, shut off from the outside world” types. Only they can work hard enough to earn their immigration. So from the get-go, we have high % of people who are the non-political types.
    (4) I think Asian/Confucian-influenced cultural values or maybe it is more accurate to say survivalist values created in a high socially hierarchical society, actively discourage political participation, getting organized, and rebel and fight back against higher powers or society at large. They more likely encourage obedience, “getting-along”, acceptance of suffering, etc. So with this legacy value, Asian Americans will take a long time and hit many obstacles before they realize that they have got to get organized.
    P.S. I am just chuckling to myself a little bit trying to imagine what the response would be like on some overly PC place like r/AA. They probably would have a stroke before the first line when they read “prominent figure … far right”. Lmao.
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    [–]ChinaFaznscist 5 points 6 months ago
    Asians Americans aren’t voting for the economic interests of themselves, they are voting based on a shared identity with the oppressed and disadvantaged non-Asian minorities.
    This is a very salient point raised by the author.
    When Asians defeated an attempt to bring back Affirmative Action in California, Senator Ted Lieu (D-Torrance) lost endorsements from his Hispanic colleagues.
    At the same time, most Asian American political advocacy groups and Asian liberals and feminists supported bringing back affirmatve action. Not only do Asians have to defend their interests from other minorities, but they also have to deal with a fifth column of self-hating Asians from their own community.
    These self-hating Asians like to accuse other Asians of “anti-blackness” and justify Black violence against Asians (through the framework of critical race theory). This blog and the ones I linked above are examples of that type of mentality, one which is common among Asian feminists/liberals/SJWs.
    We Asians simply can’t rely on the Left to defend us.
    permalinksaveparentgive gold
    [–]MongoliaGenghis-Brah 3 points 6 months ago
    You can make your identity by thinking for yourself.
    permalinksavegive gold
    [–][deleted] 3 points 6 months ago
    A very mild version of a Pan-Asian identity is the hip-hop Asian dancer community, which is mainly populated by Filipinos, but also has large amounts of Koreans involved in it on college campus.
    [–]magicalbird 2 points 6 months ago
    It is partially true that we don’t have a strong sense of identity.
    A solution could be to make our own.
    permalinksavegive gold
    [–]Philippinesol_durrrty 2 points 6 months ago
    Each culture has very strong ties to their cultural identity from what I’ve observed around me. They carry a strong sense of pride in their cultures. Herein lies the strength and weakness that you’ve pointed out. Bear with my analogy for a bit, in America, sticking to our individual cultures and having that strength of pride makes us towns, villages. But, that collectively makes us weak as a whole. If we were able to transcend and unite the cultural boundaries we would have our kingdom. Until we can supersede that I don’t think we’ll get as close to generating change for ourselves. Individually we could subvert the stereotypes, but to flip the script on the entire perception of Asian culture is a a huge effort. Let alone to change the inter-cultural perceptions.
    On the side, one of the things that I’ve not been aware of until join this sub was the lack of positive masculine Asian American/Asian male role models in pop culture. Consider that the last great and thoroughly well known Asian role model was Bruce Lee. Who are the first male role models that pop into mind? Off the top of my head I only can think of three.
    permalinksavegive gold
    [–]Chinaproper_b_wayne 3 points 6 months ago
    … But, that collectively makes us weak as a whole. If we were able to transcend and unite the cultural boundaries we would have our kingdom. Until we can supersede that I don’t think we’ll get as close to generating change for ourselves …
    Strongly agreed. Regardless of our attachment to our own cultural identity, we need to update ourselves to realize that in the west, our interests largely align and it is hurts all of us to not work towards a common goal. The problem is the lack of *uniform awareness” among Asians. Some are very conscious, but lots get by in their own small bubble, largely avoiding racism or have a home base to retreat to.
    I don’t think the cause is as hopeless such that we have to make every Asian groups to get along before we can make some changes. Lots of changes started from only a small base of people. We just need to collect enough “masculinity aware” or socio-politically aware Asians before we can generate some observable effect on society. The neutral civilian non-agitated population will always be the majority. Whether something succeed is always about how efficient those who care utilize what they got.
    permalinksaveparentgive gold

    • I notice that in these kinds of Asian-American discussions there is little knowledge about the long American immigrant and ethnic history. It usually gets simplified down to blacks and whites. That goes to show how far most Asian-Americans have already been assimilated. They’ve accepted the mainstream narrative at face value.

  7. Dude, pope I am a little afraid of responding to your comments now. Lol. You might reply with a novella again. I will keep it short and only respond to a few parts. I get what you are saying generally.

    However, most of the board is still pretty much in the vein of ‘pick up lines’ and ‘get pumped bro’ … but straight, cisgendered males of a very particular variety.
    I don’t know the attitudes of everyone on that sub, but gay/bi/whatever AM are very much welcomed. Also, there is nothing wrong with getting people to lift. This ain’t a straight thing only.

    It has all the elements of an Apatow film … Jewish nerds.
    Lol, you notice this too?

    It’s basically saying that all of the shit that modern society produces is okay, the sexism, the apathy, the materialism, etc so long as it just stops crapping on Asian cisbros. That seems really selfish to me and maybe that’s part of why I kind of like to hate on it.
    We aren’t doing well enough to be worry about “if we won, it will benefit us too much and be unfair to others”. It is a pipe dream for western media to remove the emasculation on Asian male portrayal, at least within several decades.

    AA activists spending too much of its efforts to be “fair” and “nice”, when every other movement’s main focus is on their own self-interest. You think feminist or african american activism think like “oh, we wouldn’t want too much rights or media to portray us too nicely”? Fight for ourselves first. Stop making it crapping on us first, then fight the “good” fight for everyone. You are worrying about your “privilege”, when you don’t have it in the first place.

    One big bone I have against traditional Asian habit is that to complain and fight our own self-interest is “selfish” and looked down against. Civil rights would never happen if it is all Asians. They would probably think that to just be better, work hard, and adapt, before they manage to get enough momentum to protest.

    Also, that … shitty caricature?
    People there like to hate on this sub without reading anything on here or mischaracterizing this sub as some sort of shithole, just like people here like to hate on that sub and do the same. It is the same phenomenon.
    PopePaulFarmerperpetual foreigner333d, 9h1
    but gay/bi/whatever AM are very much welcomed
    Well, you say that, but the vast majority of the relationship-oriented questions on there are for cisgendered, heterosexual males. It’s a little like a high school football team in that way: they say ‘we allow players of all caliber to join’ but then there’s always a roster of perpetually benched players. The coaches on /r/AM aren’t exactly going out of their way to do much about it except to ban hate speech.

    AA activists spending too much of its efforts to be “fair” and “nice”, when every other movement’s main focus is on their own self-interest
    This is untrue as far as modern political activism goes. Any real activist out there today is operating with intersectionality in mind. Ta-Nehisi Coates does it, Mallory Ortberg does it, Roxane Gay does it, everybody with any real credentials and any real discursive power engages with society while keeping in mind the oppressed narratives of other minorities. This may not be what you’re seeing on reddit but suffice it to say that the world is far bigger than the confines of a single website.

    People there like to hate on this sub without reading anything on here or mischaracterizing this sub as some sort of shithole, just like people here like to hate on that sub and do the same. It is the same phenomenon.
    True that. Maybe a little less hate is the way to go. Still, there are problems here (like the whole FOB thing) and there are problems over there. No reason to keep mum.

    • I liked this part:

      “This is untrue as far as modern political activism goes. Any real activist out there today is operating with intersectionality in mind. Ta-Nehisi Coates does it, Mallory Ortberg does it, Roxane Gay does it, everybody with any real credentials and any real discursive power engages with society while keeping in mind the oppressed narratives of other minorities. This may not be what you’re seeing on reddit but suffice it to say that the world is far bigger than the confines of a single website.”

  8. I think you’re misunderstanding what trip meant by “overrepresentation of Asian guys such as Rodger”. He’s stating that a large portion of discussions on Asian masculinity (not limited to the sub) focuses on bitter and violent Asian men who have low self esteem, not that Asian males are overrepresented in general. In turn, Elliot Rodger and the likes become the definitive Asian male persona because there isn’t enough good representation to balance out the bad. And really, I don’t see anything wrong with saying that these men need a more productive or therapeutic way of dealing with internalized racism (as opposed to violence).

    When there is no other socially acceptable path to solve their problems or vent, what do you think some of us turn to?
    Hopefully not mass murder.
    proper_b_wayne334d, 1h2
    First, it’s a she. Second, that’s a complete mischaracterization of r/AM. Third, you basically just mis-interpreted everything I said. I don’t even whether it is worth it to respond to everything that you said wrong.

    “Internalized racism”? Do you even know what that means?

    Hopefully not mass murder.
    What? I was saying turning to reactionary online forces, not turning into Eliot. He doesn’t even identify as Asian in the first place.

    Man… take a deep breath and reread my comments. Not misinterpret everything I said.
    I misunderstood HER comment, which in turn made me misunderstand yours. My bad.

    Although you stating Elliot Rodgers as not identifying as Asian doesn’t help the issue at all, because his Asian heritage and the demasculinization of Asian males clearly played an important part of the shooting and his manifesto.
    proper_b_wayne333d, 23h1
    Let me get this straight.

    He is half white.
    He identifies as white and hates asian man.
    He feels entitled to WHITE woman.
    He has ZERO asian influence in his life, as in he has no Asian in his household growing up, ESPECIALLY NO ASIAN MAN.
    Why isn’t this interpreted as an act of an extremist white boy being misogynist and entitled to woman and being against miscegenation? Instead people are assigning this somehow to “Asian misogynist man culture”. Do you realize how ridiculous this line of thought is? Why don’t you blame his white dad, probably the biggest source of influence in his life, instead of Asian man, who had absolutely nothing to do with him and he doesn’t want anything to do with them either?
    chickenwinged333d, 23h1
    He also identified as Eurasian.
    I’m not attributing this to “Asian misogynist man culture”
    Internalized racism was largely why he was obsessed with whiteness.
    His passing privilege/white privilege and his entitlement to women also played a huge role in the shooting and his manifesto.
    He’s half Asian, not 1/16 Asian. And with or without an Asian man in the household, Asian representation is still relevant to influencing the way biracial people think and identify, which is what I mean by the demasculinization of Asian men.
    Maybe it’s time for you to take a breath.
    proper_b_wayne333d, 22h2
    No, it is time for you to stop applying the one-drop rule. Dude, first, half the stuff you are saying aren’t even replies to what I am saying.

    He also identified as Eurasian.
    No, he accept that he is eurasian, but he magnifies his whiteness and his white identity much more than his Asianness.

    He’s half Asian, not 1/16 Asian. And with or without an Asian man in the household, Asian representation is still relevant to influencing the way biracial people think and identify, which is what I mean by the demasculinization of Asian men.
    Yes, he is half Asian, but his upbringing, how he thinks, and everything he stands for is much more white than Asian. I hate how people assign responsibility of his mistake to his “asian” side. I can even accept (the still ridiculous) assertion that it is both his “white” and his “asian” side fault. Notice how nobody make an article how we should talk about his action as a problem with white man, but tons of articles, even AA, are talking about it as a problem with Asian man. WTF? Do you even get what I saying, or is your mind bent on disagreeing with me?
    chickenwinged333d, 22h1
    I think we both agree about people downplaying his white male privilege and blaming “asianess”. But all I’m saying is that his conflicting thoughts about his biracial identity caused him to be obsessed with whiteness and have internalized racism. Look at tripophoste’s comment or popepaulfarmer’s quote about AA Identity Development Model. A lot of biracial people and bicultural people can have major identity issues, even if their parents are both white or both asian and if they’re white-passing or not.

    I am half White, half Asian, and this made me different from the normal fully-white kids that I was trying to fit in with. I envied the cool kids, and I wanted to be one of them.
    White patriarchy causes the “effeminization” of Asian men and the hypersexuality of black men. I’m not blaming his “asian” side for anything. It’s more like blaming white patriarchy for the belief that white male = best, and I think that’s also why his biracialness matters. And intersectionality links everything anyways.

    proper_b_wayne332d, 9h2

  9. Yeah, cause Reddit really hates racism against Asians, right?
    That’s why people on here upvote shit like ‘Ho Lee Fuk’ and ‘Sum Ting Wong’, even though those jokes became popular after a plane crash where Asian people fucking died, right?
    That’s why every post involving an Asian has to have a bunch of comments mixing up L’s and R’s, even when the specific Asian race mentioned doesn’t mix those up, right?
    What the fuck is up with people like you? Compared to other racist jokes, the ones against Asians get upvoted MASSIVELY. Even the one you responded to is basically at the top!
    To put it in perspective, redditors have the respect and decency to downvote racist comments against Middle-Easterners in posts like ‘ISIS executes their 100th Western Captive’. But when there’s a post about children in North Korea shooting arrows at effigies of Americans or other similar posts that don’t even involve murdering people, there’s so many subtle and not-so-subtle racist bullshit being commented, even when they’re not even fucking killing anybody from a Western country.
    I’m not even upset about the joke. It’s the denial with the pretending that racism against Asians is looked down upon on Reddit that’s fucking retarded and just plain stupid. It’s just so fucking malicious to see so much racism against Asians being upvoted so often AND THEN pretending that’s not what’s going on. That’s like the very definition of ‘gaslighting’!
    You are not going to be downvoted for comments like yours and the one you responded to. Are you stupid? I’M the one that’s going to be downvoted to Hell 9 times out of 10. You can even proclaim to comment with racist and malicious intentions and still get away with that racist shit most times. Why isn’t that enough? Why do all you fucks have to try to fuck with our heads by spewing as much racist shit as possible, then saying that that’s not what’s happening?
    You knew you were going to get upvoted with your comment. Why was it necessary to add in pretending that you’re so edgy with it?
    Stop being a fucking idiot, see what you’re doing for what it really is, and how it really is accepted and leave it at that. You still win! Your racism is still upvoted! No need to add in more bullshit!
    And you know what? Argue all you want, but there are Asians in this world (there’s a lot of us, right?) that don’t like hearing the L/R mixup jokes, the ‘you all look alike’ jokes, the ‘they’re so short’ jokes, the ‘hope he doesn’t eat his dog’ jokes, the ‘fucking Japan and their weirdness’ jokes, the minimalizing comments about our successes like ‘OF COURSE they’re good at that! They’re fucking Asian!’, and the popular tangents for positive Asian posts like, ‘Well, yes, their society does this thing efficiently, BUT it’s ONLY because their culture is so fucked, so revolved around shame, so super close-minded, that OF COURSE they’re going to do this better than other countries!’ (Cause NO OTHER SINGLE COUNTRY OF A DIFFERENT ETHNICITY IN THE WORLD can be selectively summarized in that same way, right?)
    Just because all you fucks on Reddit memorized all the Asian people that love your racist bullshit doesn’t mean that all of us feel that way.
    But go ahead, downvote me, and proceed to tell me how I should feel and why we should be ok with the constant racism just because you know a million other Asian people that are ok with it.
    Cause you guys totally use that excuse to spew and MASSIVELY upvote BLATANT, CONSTANT, EXTREME (<– Keywords) racist bullshit against black, hispanic, and middle-eastern people, right?
    Lol, fucking racist hypocrites.
    Edit (09:28 PST): Holy frijoles. I just got back to this post and 12 golds?! I haven't started reading the replies yet, but I'm sure a lot of them are supportive, so thanks, everyone! Thanks even to the replies that are no doubt going to be full of rationalization of the racism and/or denial because you are adding to the point I was trying to make.
    As of right now, this comment has 1500+ points. That's amazing. As much as the racist or just plain stubborn and ignorant people on Reddit want to pretend that 'everybody' and 'most Asians' are ok with the jokes we hear everyday, this proves that that's not true. This just proves that a lot of us against it, but are silent for one reason or another, one of which is the amount of bullshit thrown at us when we bring up how racist something is, I'm sure. This just shows that everyone else is just really willfully ignorant just for the sake of being able to stay racist. It's fucking dumb.
    This shows that I and you guys aren't alone in opposing a lot of what is said on Reddit. So don't be complacent, and start speaking out whenever something sounds really racist to you. And NEVER feel pressured to laugh at something that makes you uncomfortable just because it's 'a joke', even when it feels like you're alone in how you feel. Cause you're not alone 🙂 We just need to start speaking out more.
    At the very least, we can eventually help people realize what is and what is not ok in terms of racial humor. Cause I'm super sick of this crap.
    You guys are awesome 😀
    permalinkembedsaveparentgive gold
    [–]ShartShark 660 points 6 months ago*x2
    Being a Korean immigrant in the US, I totally feel you.
    Because South Korea has good relations with the U.S., and no one really knows the struggles of Korean immigrants in U.S. history (L.A. riots for example), people think it's okay to crack jokes on Koreans, and all other Asians for that matter.
    It was a lose-lose situation growing up in the States for me. Get made fun of for NO FUCKING REASON. If you don't retaliate, it's because Asian kids are nerdy and weak. If you do, it's because you know 'kungfu and karate and shit' and it's not fair, and the school will rain hell on you, you become the crazy Asian kid that couldn't assimilate. Do well in school? Your accomplishments aren't recognized, nor your hard work. It's the default option for being Asian, you have to do well. Are your grades average or worse? What the hell is wrong with you, you're not an American kid, you have to excel and work your ass off.
    We're not allowed to form our own identities. If we try to break free of the mold, then we are labelled as failures and incompetents. Frankly, most Asian people I know and grew up with don't fit the stereotype in everyone's heads that often become the butt of the joke. And people feel that we don't have the grounds to retaliate because they're 'harmless words,' or 'your people were never enslaved' or 'your people are financially well off'
    Asian people can't possibly fit into all those boxes. Asian American poverty in some parts of the country is heartbreaking. The Asian Americans of the 19th and 20th century, and even the 21st century were many times oppressed people.
    I wish more people knew about Asian American (or any other Asian culture). But history often glances over these things and many people remain ignorant.
    **thank you for the gold anonymous redditors. I'm glad my first gold was about something more profound than a meme. I hope it can give some people perspective they may not have considered before. To all the haters: I don't claim to be right. I don't claim to be hypocrisy-free. I don't claim that Koreans aren't racist and have only been victims. I just wished to share my own thoughts and experiences.

  10. I feel like the reason asian stereotypes have flourished is because we don’t actively bitch about them and how they put us down. I’m second generation Chinese, and all my life people have made jokes about how “its natural I do well in school” and “we’re a bunch of savages” for having a wider diet range such as octopus, sea weed, dogs, birds, etc. I actually fought against them a lot and got a couple of reprimandations for making a fuss, but then I guess they stuck it in my head that racist jokes are all fun and games right?
    Then comes middle school, and I casually roll off a Mexican joke like “What’s the difference between a Mexican and a bench? the bench can support a family hurdurdur”. I really thought it was okay because people just roll off their asian jokes like “HAHA YOU MUST EAT YOUR DOGS RIGHT HAHA” so I was like okay cool seems like this is the system. Guess what? I get suspended for saying this remark, and when I bring up other kids saying these offensive remarks about Asians, I just get told “its not the same thing”.
    Its complete bullshit how people get blasted to hell for making a black or mexican joke, but then become the funniest guy in the room for making an asian joke. Because asians never got “oppressed by white people” or “enslaved for generations” or “ravaged by drug cartels”. But then they mysteriously forget about the Opium Wars caused by Britain, or the massive riots that lynched Chinese immigrants out in the West for “taking all their jobs”. When black people play the race card and say,”Our ancestors worked for you, you work for us etc..” they seem to think that their culture was unique in having brutal work conditions to survive. Chinese Americans worked tirelessly to build the railroads that connect this country, risking death from dynamite, and being paid literally dirt money to survive. Sure, maybe slavery was a little worse, but it doesn’t make what happened to asians any better.
    It really fucking sucks how people can somehow justify that one racist joke is more racist than the other. And the problem is when you talk out against it, people say “stop being a wuss” while if its a black/mexcian joke its like “seriously reconsider your life you cunt”. At this point in my life, I’ve learned to shrug off these stereotypes about my ancestry, but I hope sometime in the future racial jokes can be taken with the same effect no matter the race, whether it be “all fun and games” or “don’t be so insensitive”.

    • I understand how irritating it might be that so many white Americans forget about Asian-American oppression from the past. But Americans are pretty clueless about history in general. It pisses me off that most white Americans, including those of German ancestry, don’t even know about the history of German-American oppression. Entire independent German-American communities were destroyed, and they were the largest ethnic group in the country. Americans have short memories, both about their own history and the history of others.

  11. LMAO

    Without the Japanese, there would not have been a “California” as we know it. They went into the Central Valley and sunk wells deeper than anyone and eventually found water. This allowed for the HUGE California agricultural industry.
    California marks the official end of the Pacific Rim … so Asians have brought centuries of design with them. Walking through Berkeley, California AND the Peninsula, one sees some of the most beautiful neighborhoods in America. Why? The landscaping is influenced by Asian, Mexican / Spanish, and Scandinavia influences.
    MUSIC. One of my greatest pleasures used to be going to the annual Japanese Jazz Festival held in Golden Gate Park each year. Watching the ethnic mixture of musicians take the audience through styles of Jazz and eventually blowing our minds with full blown traditional Jazz being played by ancient traditional Asian instruments …. well … the hybrid effects weren’t only glorious, but extremely innovative.
    Silicon Valley. Not long after the 08′ Crash, I was walking through the Stanford campus one day and an older white woman moved her hand across the skyline and asked me if I knew who was recently responsible for keeping the area’s economy afloat. I said, “No”. She replied … “Asians.”
    Spirituality. Yes, if our schools wanted to, they could teach Americans of all backgrounds to do math as well as anyone else. But, I think the deep Buddhist, Taoist, Confucius (don’t laugh), philosophies that has over time, seeped into many Asian cultures has brought a more stable voice the the multi-ethinic field that the “United States” are.
    OUR CARS!! When Detroit was sucking our blood during the 70s with lousy cars that came with “Built-in obsolescence, Asian car makers took the opportunity to built a better, cheaper product and changed the market and saved the average Joe from having to buy a new car every three years.

    Read more: http://www.city-data.com/forum/california/2341632-norcal-asians-vs-socal-asians-3.html#ixzz3jc5UkzDs

  12. Fwiw East Asians traditionally don’t care for outside appearance as much as inside appearenxe. It’s why even in japan housing and landscape can be ass-ugly and look second world from the outside, but it always nice inside :p

    I think the houses themselves here are fine. It’s the class + foreigner drama exhibited here really. Many people wax about the tearing down the 50’s middle class homes, but those homes are no more architecturally notable than these McMansions. They frankly are just generic tract housing representing the mass suburbanization of that time.


    • I hold no emotional attachment to tract housing suburbanization. I despise it, in fact. Not that I like McMansions either. If Asian-Americans move into the suburbs, I wish they’d tear it down and replace it with something traditionally Asian in style. The last thing Asian-Americans should assimilate to is American suburbs, whether tract houses or McMansions.

  13. I know many conservatives wax about the 50’s. I almost think being white is a prerequisite to that. I sure as hell am not gonna get nostalgic over an era of mass subirbanization, getting forced into the house as a woman, being legal to discriminate against me cause I’m asian, etc

  14. Part of what he is attempting to allude to is that mutations regarding intelligence occur in the X chromosome. Men do not (usually) possess a second X chromosome to back up the mutated one. As a consequence there are indeed more male geniuses than female ones, as well as more really stupid men than really stupid women.

    • It was an informative article. But it also had a narrow focus that I found a bit irritating. The author was too quick to jump to conclusions on too little info. There was very little discussion about how genetics interact with environments and absolutely no mention of epigenetics. I hope that scientific reporting on genetics begins improving.

  15. “2 years ago
    John Maynard Keynes — wow! You think that anyone in born into this country is ENTITLED to “live comfortably” from “cradle to grave”. OMG! That would surely be bankrupting to our capitalist nation, as we live in a global ecosystem — not in a vacuum. To extend your logic, should everyone globally be entitled to live comfortably? Including those who are the unfortunate product of early and unwanted pregnancy. Where does merit enter the pciture? It sounds like you are a socialist.

    • Should everyone globally be entitled to basic freedoms, rights, and opportunities? Should everyone globally be entitled to not be violently oppressed, starved, tortured, etc? Should everyone be entitled globally to not have public goods privatized and have their commons stolen while costs are externalized onto them? Should everyone globally be entitled to self-governance and self-determination of their own lives, families, and communities? Well… yes, they should be so ‘entitled’. Those should all be considered basic human rights and inviolable at that, if we cared even slightly about justice and fairness, compassion and morality.

  16. Implicit bias among Asians in the study is notable because it challenges the in-group/out-group theory of bias. The study found only a 4% margin of difference between the percentage of monoracial Asians who favored Asians and the percentage of monoracial Asians who favored Whites – 38% of Asians favored whites over Asians, while 42% of Asians favored other Asians over whites.
    …The highest level of implicit racial preference revealed in the entire study was among whites being tested for bias against Asian Americans, with 50% of whites tested in the study revealing a subconscious preference for other whites over Asians. Thirty percent of whites had no implicit bias, and 19% of whites had a subconscious preference for Asians.


    • It is interesting that about 50% of American whites either are unbiased toward or actually expressing a preference for Asians. There actually isn’t a big difference between the percentage of Asians that prefer whites and vice versa, respectively 30% and 38%, maybe not all that statistically significant.

  17. My own personal (addmittedly hair-brained, and unsubstantiated) theory is that there is something about white people that all humans are wired to look up to. In Malcom Gladwell’s book, he cites repeated cases where there’s a white bias, that crosses cultures and ethnicities. In Jamaica, there’s a obvious hierarchy among skin colors. Black people are shown to have a bias against themselves. Gladwell himself had a bias for white people ( he’s half black).
    You combine that with dominant social status and decades of media and movies where they are the protagonists, you get asians hopelessly enthralled.

  18. Here is a thought…you have your child enrolled in a school…their job is to teach him…make them do their job. Its really not that difficult.

    We didnt have the option for Montessori or any other alternate schooling. When my daughter was in 6 yrs old, she was tested and found to have the numeracy ability of a 15 yr old…and the literacy level of a 17 yr old. Her school wanted to put her ahead two years. I wouldnt allow this as it happend to me when I was a kid…..academically still not a challenge, however, emotionally it was a disaster.

    I discussed the options with her school – they were participating in unsatisfactory behaviour by taking her out of her grade 3 class and sending her to other year levels to help kids with learning difficulties. She was spending an hour a day in her own class. I was not happy with this, not at all!…..So,…..I put my foot down. I did a substatial amount of research and found that the way to deal with these kids is not to pull them from class or put them ahead of their peers….and certainly not to stifle them….but to continue to occupy them at the same level as their peers.

  19. My 8-year-old son is very bright, with an IQ of 133. He is in the gifted program at school once a week and seems to enjoy it. My concern is his time in the regular ed. classroom–he just doesn’t seem to even try. He reads above grade level, but doesn’t really like to read (is that strange for a kid who’s so bright?)–which results in him not really paying attention when he’s reading and then his retention of what he’s read goes down. He’ll get 100’s on several math assignments in a row, then get an F–like he just decided to space out that day. Sometimes on assessments at school, he scores very high, other times he gets average scores. He doesn’t seem to actually put any real effort into the things he does. Socially and emotionally, he’s 8 years old and likes all the things other 8 year old boys like, he can also be somewhat impulsive. Has anyone else experienced this with their gifted child?

    Helpful (2)

    Elyse – posted on 11/08/2008
    YES! My son is now almost 16, took the SAT in 7th grade and scored higher in math than the average high school senior, and just brought home an F in a chem. lab! They lack motivation, not intellect; he gets bored.


    Helpful (3)

    sandra – posted on 09/30/2012
    My son was definitely an under achiever. They budgeted the gifted program out of our school system the year my son was old enough for it (3rd grade) and started servicing them through special ed. Our special ed program was not something I was interested in.

  20. Lol. When I was a kid I loved human body books, and non fiction. Then the teachers made me read fictio books, which I never did. Later on I did though, but not the kind the teachers wanted me to read :p

    These frustrated g parents need to assert their authority more hojestly.

    Carla – posted on 05/26/2015
    Thank you all so much for posting all of this. All this sounds so much like my son. He is 17 and gets A’s on his tests but doesn’t turn in his homework so they give him a D. He does the math in his head and gets marked off for not showing his work. He hates school. I have been dealing with this since he was in 2nd grade. He has always hated school. He is a quiet introspective kid. Very empathetic, kind, gentle and not a rough and tumble kid. He is very emotionally mature and wouldn’t be swayed by peer pressure. He goes by the beat of his own drum. The problem is we let him skip 11th grade so he is doing 11th and 12th all this year. He is failing 3 classes because he won’t do the work. I asked him why and he said I know the answers and I will ace the regents – which he has every time in the past. But, when he gets to college it won’t work that way.
    If he fails these 3 classes he can take them in summer school but he will hate that too. He is 17 and I told him his failures are his own and he said he knows it. I am just tired of nagging him to go to school when he refuses. His teachers have given me work for him and he has done most of it. I don’t know if I should tell him just to focus on the classes I know he can pass for this last 4 weeks of school and expect him to retake the ones he doesn’t pass. For some reason he still thinks he is going to pass everything. Thanks for letting me vent.



    Sara – posted on 06/03/2014
    This sounds EXACTLY like my son! His IQ is the same (he was tested in kindergarden, but I’ve heard it rarely changes much in childhood). He’s been able to read since he was 3…reading the sides of divert trucks and DVDs when he thought no one was listening, but when asked to read aloud, made every effort to avoid it. When his dad and I were together (we split when he was 3 1/2) we bought “your baby can read” for him–although I told his dad it was pointless lol. He ALREADY figured it out, of course. But he would practically have a breakdown when we’d tell him it was time to watch “Giovanni can read” (that’s what we named it to get him interested, which was a big mistake because he’d already read the cover and knew we were LYING to him, and possibly tricking him into performing–something else he hates, along with talking on the phone, team sports, and social media). He’d scream “NO!–not ‘Giovanni can read!’.” And he routinely gets horrible marks on his assignments, if he turns them in at all. He can do algebra in his head, but he won’t finish 5 days of math in a row…after a week of 100%s. He won’t even sign his name (or it’s so sloppy you can’t read it.)

    The not wanting to reading worried me because he is supposed to read every day at home and he hated it….until we let him read whatever he wanted. He’s now alternating between The Bible, an art book about Rembrant, and Moby Dick. In fact, we just discussed how different his next book (Les Misérables) will be because it’s actually a translation–whereas MD was originally written in English. And he GETS THAT. How do you know your child is gifted?

    You just know. You get it too.



    Brynn – posted on 12/07/2012
    That was me. I’m now almost 30, but you basically described my life till I was in high school. At 16, I forced my parents to pull me from public school and place me in an independent study program which changed everything. It might just be that the learning environment doesn’t work for him, so why should he buy in? As a public school teacher, 100 percent of school is buy-in and that isn’t something you can force someone into.



    NRSZALDUA – posted on 11/26/2012
    i dont know if my child is gifted. if he wants to get a high grade he can do it but if he is not in the mood even though he knows what to do or how to answer it he doesnt care if he gets a low score, he answers too fast and writes too fast that makes his notes unreadable but when you ask him, he can tell you what he writes. he can’t really focus but he can remember or review too fast, every quarterly exams and quizzes he gets perfect and almost perfect scores but during practice and seatworks he really doesnt mind to get a low scores. He study effortless and when he comes home from school he knows almost his lessons. My concern is he can’t focus and always thinking ahead what he’s going to do next.



    Michelle – posted on 01/07/2012
    I could have been your son at that age. I loved the gifted program time, but back in regular class was awful. I would get A’s on assessments but be failing because I wasn’t turning in assignments. Two things helped – one, it was discovered that my math skills weren’t as advanced as everything else and I got assistance for that, two, the school librarian helped me see the options for jr high & high school and decent grades were as important as testing for the advanced schools. That gave me the kick I needed and there I found other brilliant friends (many much brighter than I!) who had more similar interests and made getting through high school interesting.
    The IEP idea is interesting, but I wonder if it will work if your child isn’t into it. As for reading, is there anything he’s interested in? My child was above average but hated reading until we discovered she was interested in science topics instead of fiction that all the other kids liked. Other kids had book reports on wimpy kids, she did her’s on planets, space exploration, spiders, bees…it is what it took to get her reading at level. Good luck! It can take a while for a truly gifted kid to find their path, but something internally motivating to them will be a big help.”

  21. i think that its not so much about confirmaity as like, resting on one’s laurels? For example, a lot of Chinese are super proud of the fact that we invented paper and printing blocks and gunpowder, but they will admit that we kind of… were satifieed with that and didn’t go further.
    It also have to do with the fact that Chinese civilization was kind of peerless within their region of influence (ie India was the only comparable civilization but there’s the entire Himalayas between the countries ) So what happened was that while white people are busy inventing new ways of killing each other on continental Europe and thus inventing new weaponry and stuff, China didn’t nearly have that much of an incentive because everyone and their mother was our vassal state.
    And then when America dominated, they didn’t stop inventing, and that’s kind of what Chinese ppl are talking about when they say white ppl are creative, like it seems like even through isolationism and everything, white ppl never stops coming up with new things.
    A lot of social liberals in China right now lament the fact that it took white people one or two revolutions to ditch monarchy but somehow after thousands of years China is still pretty much a dynasty-based system. (Hence chinese ppl calling the current government Tianchao, the “Dynasty of Heavens” mostly ironic/sarcastically)

    • It’s too easy to have a short vision. The US has only been a significant global power this past century. Even within that, it was only because of WWII that the US was able to get ahead. That isn’t that long. It’s barely a blink of they eye in historical terms. There have been empires that rules for several times longer than the US has existed.

      We live in such dynamic and unstable times that power and economic fortunes could shift more quickly than at any other prior period. I see the US easily falling into stagnation or falling preying to internal divisions. I wouldn’t be so sure that America’s influence will last or remain as wide-ranging. If it does, it will only because of the influx of immigrants from such countries as China.

    • There are three reasons America has dominated.

      First, location has been immensely influential, as a large continent-wide country with oceans on either side. Second, there are massive amounts of natural resources in North America, including the best farm soil in the world, along with a massive water system of rivers and lakes. Third, it’s an immigrant nation that has depended on taking the best minds from countries around the world.

      Some other factors could be added. Vast wealth was built through slavery. America built its global empire by piggybacking on a close alliance with the British Empire. One of the reasons the British Empire became so powerful was because it had an early industrialization fueled by easily accessible large deposits of coal.

      Most of these are accidents of fate. No one can take personal credit for them. Anyway, Europe would still be a backwards place, if not for all that was invented in the Middle East and Asia. Alphabetic language, mathematics, gunpowder, compasses, paper, printing presses, etc. China invented professional governance. All of this is pretty much everything modern civilization is built upon. Europe came quite late to the game and most European countries have only been seriously in the game for a few centuries. That is nothing in the big picture of technological, social, and cultural advance of civilization.

      If history is any basis of the future, the Western global powers will likely collapse in the coming centuries and not leave much behind. All societies go through periods of creativity and stagnation. That is nothing new.

  22. saying asians raise their nose bridge to become white is an incredibly black and white view on this matter, and is as inflammatory as saying caucasians in america get lip fillers, tans, and butt implants to look black. it’s a very western-centric view and conceit on the part of white people looking at east asian culture as foreign, weird and so inferior that they have to staunchly copy the almighty west.
    i do agree that images of caucasians have influenced asian beauty standards, as all developing/developed nations are aware of what beauty standards exist internationally. additionally, western colonialism HAS influenced asians into thinking many of their natural features aren’t good enough, that people with eurasian genes are naturally better looking (because white mixes -> higher social class -> better looking by association), and it’s true that caucasians are still often associated with gentility (just look at how many caucasian models are used in asian products that are marketed to only an asian population). however, i do not think asians are doing it because they specifically want to look like white people, and many procedures they do like getting puffy undereye bags are just plain reported as LOOK HOW WEIRD THOSE ASIANS ARE!! without the “they want to look white!” sensationalism BS usually accompanying korean plastic surgery articles in the west. i find that white people often have an incredibly narrow perception of what asians look like anyway and immediately think that they’re trying to erase their supposedly specific “ethnic” features when, shock, asians have a HUGE range of natural features just like white people do, just like people of every race do. small defined noses, large flat noses, hooked noses, small eyes, large eyes, prominent cheekbones, softer cheekbones, square face, small face etc. etc. a lot of asians already have these specific features that other asians go under the knife to obtain.
    additionally, the stereotypical caucasian nose does not look like asian plastic surgery’s ideal nose. even white people often shave down their noses to make it smaller, are they perhaps erasing their natural “ethnic” identity of large, prominent noses? asians rarely ask for surgery to make their nose raised to the same level as caucasians, they only want noses that still look asian, but higher than their own natural one. however, rhinoplasty is still very tricky so many of them end up with these very unnatural looking noses as you describe. additionally, many asians agree that korean plastic surgery often goes too far, and if they look weird it’s more that they go in excess rather than wanting to look more “white”
    so yes, asians want to look higher class, which is often associated with caucasianness, but the definition of current asian beauty standards is not only wrapped up in as simple an explanation as, “they want to look white.” asians go under the knife to look like versions of themselves that can go toe to toe with the international beauty standard, which has been largely influenced by the west due to the west’s global dominance over the last century. however, right now asia is in a weird flux where the west is still viewed as a dominating power but asia has its own media and are as able to be global arbiters of what is beautiful as western colonizers in the past, so out of that there have erupted beauty trends that look strange to western eyes.
    as a side note, i’m starting to see white people trying to look japanese on youtube or exalting those oh so exotic monolids, so maybe one day we’ll get strongly stereotyped posts asking, “why are white people trying to erase their unique ethnic features like their large hooked noses and sunken eyes? why do they want to look like other races so bad :/?” i mean, this is already happening to some extent but you don’t see many articles expressing bemusement at it similar to how korean plastic surgery is covered in the west.

    • It’s funny how people obsess about looks.

      When I watch some BBC shows, I sometimes think that there is a surprising number of British actors, especially English, that are not particularly good looking. If non-whites are trying to emulate white appearances, it sure isn’t the English look they are going for. Not to say that all English people are ugly. But I suspect most people prefer the physical features of the Irish or Northern Europeans.

      Maybe it has to do with American influence. The US has more people of Irish ancestry than does Ireland and also more people of German ancestry than of any other ancestry. Midwesterners and a lot of West Coasters have a tone of German genetics in them, along with Scandinavian genetics. Hollywood has projected that body ideal to the world.

      • Whites do look different between ethnicities, so that makes sense.

        Though, you have to realize that the whites Asians in Asia are exposed to are the models, movie stars, people basically paid for their looks. In fact there’s pretty funny stories of Asians coming it the west and being shocked that most whites don’t look anything like the models and movie stars. Lol

        Aren’t british people stereotyped as being ugly? I don’t know. I generally don’t find Germanic people attractive. Slavic people are nice though.

        • I don’t know that the British are more ugly than average. But there is something about an ugly British person that really stands out to me.

          I saw this one British actor the other day. He certainly would have had no acting career in the US. Maybe the British have lower standards for their actors. I don’t know, but this guy had a face that was so unusual that it was almost cartoonish. If the ugly British is a stereotype, this guy fit that stereotype perfectly.

          The early Hollywood look is the tall blond. The stereotypical California surfer boy, which was to an extent based on reality. It is still the look that Fox News goes for its women reporters.

          My friend was visitng the other day. She lives in Oregon these days, but grew up in Iowa. She says that she can tell Midwesterners by their looks, especially for places like Iowa. There is a stereotype for the Iowa farm boy: big and blonde with a solid square jaw. It’s distinctive, if you have spent enough time in the Midwestern farming states.

          The early national tv anchors and many movie actors came from the Midwest because the accent was considered neutral, and a large number came from one particular area, the core of Standard American English. That is how the dialect of my tiny part of the country became the national standard, and how the media image of America became represented by those who spoke that dialect before it became standard.

          I have no doubt that ugliness is found in all populations. It is hardly an objective measure. The British used to portray the Germans as ugly when they were enemies. However, some cultures are more obsessed about such things and maybe go to greater effort to ensure their ugly people don’t get seen as much on tv and movies.

  23. slides in Black female here. HA! You are oh so wrong. In fact, it’s not just white that is more acceptable in the black community. Its pretty much any other race to give you mixed babies is cool. Sometimes it is blatantly put like this. But I agree with /u/asiantemp that it more or less manifests itself in the fact that lighter skin/a loose curl pattern is seen as “better” or that guys want girls that have a little extra “exotic” something. slides out

  24. Sorry but we really need to figure out what the fuck causes this (i mean the condition) and why. Then we need to work on reducing the effects of this. I can feel compassion because she can’t help it, but Jesus Christ, don’t convince me this isn’t a disability. Which it is accepted as fact, but people arguing that it’s just as good as not being disabled. Fuck that. The only people so say that are the people too emotionally invested. We can try to accomadated you, and show compassion for something you can’t help, but god forbid that there’s nothing wrong with this behavior and that this disability dosent come with shitty aspects that are worth looking into cures for.


    • The friend who was visiting me has a daughter. She has been trying to get her daughter diagnosed because she has all the symptoms of Aspergers, including the meltdowns. My friend is a smart lady and she does detailed research. She is a great advocate for her kid. But none of it changes the fundamental problem.

      That is a shitty position for a parent to be in. And it is also shitty for everyone else, including teachers and other kids who have to be around those meltdowns and such.

      Some parents of autistics worry about vaccinations because of small doses of mercury. The general worry makes sense, even if the fear of vaccinations is irrational. We are surrounded by toxins these days. Studies have proven that toxins contribute to autism, along with other disorders such as ADHD. Knowing this, why do we continue to allow so many toxins in our environment and refuse to enforce strict regulations for pollution and chemicals used in products?

      • >That is a shitty position for a parent to be in. And it is also shitty for everyone else, including teachers and other kids who have to be around those meltdowns and such.

        I don’t like the advocates who completely downplay this, and/or shame/guilt people for not wanting to put up with it. You know what I mean?

        I know people say it’s a spectrum. So what? You’re asking people to gamble on their chances?

        • I mean like this. It seems like total entltlement. Not to believe in social services and accomadation, but to act like their kid’s condition is just as desirable as not having it, and hence they want to stop disability advocacy at accomadating them, rather than actually getting to the root of the disability and even treating it.

          At the end of the day it’s a genetic fuckup. You make the best of it, but it’s a genetic fuckup. Autism? Genetic issues, but also evidence of toxins and you know, bad shit in the environment. Before you say genetic diversity… to bad DS isn’t genetically inherited but a chromosomal fuckup that produces people who generally don’t reproduce. Genetic diversity means fuck all if people afflicted don’t reproduce smh


          • I always wondered what was wrong with using egnetic engineering to make people superhuman. The problemsI have with it are sociatal: I don’t want the technology to only bnefor the rich or otherwise exacerbate inequality. But I have no issueds with the tech itself.

            People are just scared of what they don’t understand. In the case of disability advocates, they’re scared of the entire intelelctual energy they’ve built up to become, well, invalidated.


            ” There is no scenario — I repeat, no scenario, none whatsoever — in which any woman knows that, if she foregoes conception now, she will have a normal child later on. Earlier in the chapter, in the course of demonstrating that some children’s disabilities truly do place crushing emotional burdens on parents, Glover had adduced the case of Julia Hollander, mother of a child with significant brain damage: “the cause of her problem was not genetic,” Glover notes. “When she was born, the placenta peeled away early, and this destroyed her cerebral cortex” (40). Yes, well: this is quite terrible, but it should at least give pause to bioethicists who concoct scenarios in which women decline to initiate a pregnancy now in the assurance that they will have a normal child if they only wait. The world in which bioethicists propose such things, the world in which Kamm can chastise a woman who produces a “defective” child “when she could have easily (!) avoided it,” is a world without birth trauma, without conditions undiagnosable before birth (autism, pervasive developmental delay), without any sense of contingency — let alone an openness to the unbidden. Such trolley problems and what-if hypotheticals profoundly distort what it is like to contemplate having a child who may have a disability; indeed, they distort what it is like to have a child.”

            Yo dawg, it’s about probability. Life runs on probabilities. Get it? probabilities

      • My friend has no romantic notions about her child’s disabilities. She has made it clear that her life would be so much easier with a normal child. She isn’t just dealing with her child’s problems, but also her own problems and that of other family members. She has had a brain concussion. And her mother is experiencing cognitive decline, possibly related to autoimmune disorder.

        Are those all just varieties of “cognitive diversity” to be embraced and celebrated? I don’t think my friend wants to accommodate her child’s Asperger’s, her mother’s cognitive decline, or her own concussion. She would prefer a cure for all of them, if possible.

        What reasonable and moral person would want to condemn any person to these difficult expressions of “cognitive diversity”? Her kid suffers and struggles because she doesn’t understand how to act normal and fit in. That sucks big time for a kid. What cold-hearted asshole would not want to cure that?

        Of course, failing a cure, accommodation is second best. But meanwhile we should be seeking cures and eventually prevention before conception or at least before birth.

        • Well autism can’t be scanned for (yet.) but there already is “prevention” for scannable problems like Down syndrome, since most DS kids are aborted a majority of the time. There is no cure for DS, yet. And you got people protesting against the idea of cures. And sbortion (prevention) makes them uneasy. They just want their abnormalities to be considered normal and accomadated.

        • Well autism is a range which is the common arguMent. Some autistic people do cool shit, are accomplished scientists, artists, etc,

          I don’t see how this argument is a argument though. It dosent exactly invalidate the problems of the disorder, and overlooks that this shouldn’t speak for all autistics.

        • This is interesting, but statistically, fetuses with mental disorders and retardation are aborted at much higher rates than babies only known for physical problems like select palate.

        • “Well autism is a range which is the common arguMent. Some autistic people do cool shit, are accomplished scientists, artists, etc,

          “I don’t see how this argument is a argument though. It dosent exactly invalidate the problems of the disorder, and overlooks that this shouldn’t speak for all autistics.”

          That also fits into my friends experience, both for her daughter and for herself.

          Her daughter does have lots of abilities. But it is pure speculation to claim that she wouldn’t have those abilities if her autism could be cured.

          As for my friend, she has noticed that her concussion has simultaneously lessened some of her abilities and increased others. For example, she now has a more intuitive ability to play the piano.

          The price for that new ability was extremely high. Even so, it doesn’t come as close to the problems her daughter deals with. Besides, it wasn’t as if her music ability wasn’t always there or couldn’t have been developed without a concussion.

  25. @jae426 – But then so am I – Asperger’s – and would say that for some people with autistic spectrum disorders life can be valid and even enriching. Give it a chance to live and the love, time and support it needs to become itself.

    tree_and_leaf Oldhermit

    @Oldhermit – I’m not on the spectrum – though there are certain traits of it I can see in myself – but I have several friends who have Asperger’s. I know that things have been very hard for them at times, and still is on occasion, but I love and value them and recognise the many good things they have done with their lives. I would never wish that they had never been born, and I don’t think they do, either.

    Thunderbolt23 Oldhermit

    @Oldhermit –

    To what extent as parents should we ever feel free to gamble unencumbered with someone else’s potential quality of life though? And that’s what it is – a gamble.

    Clearly, you are happy to be have born and to experienced life. However, many will have not. Being micawbrewish about it is the equivalent of putting your head in the sand and just assuming everything will be hunky dory.


  26. I think that because of the experience of the Holocaust, we tend to assume that a human life is valuable at all costs. But sometimes the disability is so severe that there is no quality of life. I will always remember seeing a hospital ward filled with severely disabled young people. They were permanently strapped to wheel chairs, in constant discomfort and pain and their brain function was almost certainly much less than a domestic pet. If you kept your cat in such circumstances you would be universally condemned as cruel and self indulgent.
    But humans are animals too.
    A majority of disabled people can have a good quality of life and that life should be celebrated and supported, but sometimes a reasonable quality of life is just impossible.
    There is also the quest of whether a foetus in the early stages of development counts as a fully formed human being. For me it is absolutely not and a woman’s right to choose at the early stages of her pregnancy should be absolute, for whatever reason.

    • That expresses my own view as well. But I’d take it further. It isn’t just people in hospital wards that suffer. The world is filled with suffering people. I support dealing with that suffering in all ways possible. We need better welfare and healthcare, but also abortion should remain an option. We also should be doing research to prevent problems at the genetic level and then abortion could be a moot issue.

  27. I know I sound like an evil Darwinist or somethig.

    But I truly feel “hats off” towards parents of disabled kids who are pro-life, or parents or are just trying to get by. However, I feel really fuckij irritated with parents like academic and his ilk.

    • I support all people, including all parents, of disabled children and otherwise.

      Life is tough. There are no easy answers. But we could have better answers if we were willing to openly discuss these issues and were willing to spend the massive funding necessary, including toward politically incorrect genetic research (also toward research on factors of environment and epigenetics).

      There is so much fear around this topic. There are too many people who want to limit what can be talked about or want to shut down debate entirely.

    • Some of the comments were decent. But not all of them. Here is a comment that demonstrates a typical problem:

      ” My son Dakota is 11, and was diagnosed with Asperger’s Disorder at the age of 3, his father was Diagnosed with the same At age 32. We often thought of his father as rude, or just unsocial, it was not until Dakota was diagnosed that his father was diagnosed with the same. So clearly there is some sort of genetic tie. But, there is no reason, there is no cure, and there is nothing to explain it…”

      It is so easy for people to jump to genetic determinism. It is so much part of the assumptions of our society. It is amazing how few people know about epigenetics, which also gets passed on from parent to child. If there had been an environmental cause of the father’s Asperger’s, that potentially could get passed on through epigenetics to the child and maybe over many more generations as well.

      In the article and the 26 comments that followed, not a single person mentioned epigenetics. One of the most interesting and promising fields to explain these kinds of issues. When is epigenetics going to be taken seriously in discussions?

      Only if we can acknowledge environmental causes, including cross-generationally though epigenetics, will we be able to change those environmental factors. But if we assume that it is a part of cognitive diversity, should we continue to expose kids to toxins and such in order to maintain this cognitive diversity? Is it a child’s right to have environmental factors forced upon them to cause them to become autistic so that we don’t have to feel uncomfortable talking about cures?

      Also, what about environmental factors that might not just alter epigenetics but also alter genetics. We have this simplistic notion that environment and genetics are two separate things. And that if there is any genetic or cross-generational component, then we must treat it as fatalism or else as a gift from God.

  28. I am autistic and I don’t care. I honestly would jump for joy if a cure was found. This illness, this disease–yes, I dared call it those words! Sue me!–ruins my life every day. I would give my arm for a cure. I have never seen anything that Autism Speaks says that didn’t ring true for me, and I support everything they do. I AM AUTISTIC AND I SUPPORT AUTISM SPEAKS. SUE ME!

    Log in to Reply
    thecaffeinatedautistic on March 27, 2015 at 9:42 pm
    No, I won’t sue you for your personal stance. I will say that you don’t really give much of a crap about your fellow autistic people, the people who are like you, if you don’t care what we have to say. I don’t think every aspect of Autism is awesome all the time. But I’d rather be respected for my humanity rather than disrespected and told it’d be better if my family tortured or killed me.

    • This person appears to be suffering from a strange mental disease and I don’t think it has anything to do with autism. No one in their right mind would think the first comment was advocating torture and murder. The second comment is disconnected from reality to the point of paranoia.

  29. Autism Speaks is the most influential autism advocacy organization in the world, bringing in nearly $50 million in donations in 2013. It spends $15.3 million on scientific research, mostly looking for the root neurological and genetic causes of autism.

    “Some of the research would stop us from being born, as it has with Down syndrome,” Grace said.

    In contrast, the organization spent just $4.6 million on “family services” grants, which fund programs aiming to improve the care, education, and employment of autistic people.

    “It would be wonderful if they spent money on things like helping poorer people with autism get job support and communication support, like iPads,” Grace added. She wishes Autism Speaks would listen to one of its slogans, “It’s time to listen.”

    • If the genetic, epigenetic, and environmental causes were ‘cured’ or prevented, then there would be no need to worry about how poor people are impacted by autism. Instead, all the money paid to accomodate people with autism could be better spent on helping all poor people. It’s not as if poor people need one more thing, autism or otherwise, to make their life even more difficult. Getting an iPad won’t make being a poor autistic suck any less, especially for severe autistics with low IQ.

    • I checked out the comments section. Then I checked back out again.

      If someone is a smart, talented and unique person with autism, they’d probably still be a smart, talented and unique person when a ‘cure’ came along to deal with all the problems that make their lives miserable or else make the lives of other people miserable.

      Wouldn’t be awesome if there was a ‘cure’ for the emotional breakdowns and social awkwardness? Or does every autistic have a right to have public meltdowns that disrupt other people’s lives? What about the rights of those other people?

      Identifying with one’s social problems is like a patient identifying with their cancer or their diabetes, as if that is what defines them as a person. It’s plain bizarre.

  30. Disabled advocates confuse the fuxk out of me. First people like academic tell me I should say “people with disabilities” and not “disabled people” but them there’s this

    Peggy Derr: What do you think this uproar is?!?! This IS us autistic people advocating for ourselves. We are TIRED of false people saying they advocate for us, only to act as though we are a scourge upon the earth! We are TIRED of people correcting us when we say we are autistic people and saying we should say people with autism instead. That STRIPS us of OUR identity. We are TIRED of people saying we need to be ‘cured’ There IS NO CURE! However, there are living breathing people who want to live life as independently as possible. Some of us are able to be completely independent without help from others. Some of us need some help, and some of us need A LOT and are unable to live independently. Some of us can communicate effectively without external aids of any kind. Some need to have Some aids, and others rely on external aids exclusively. There are many of us, and we are as varied as ‘normal’ people. Hell, instead of calling autism a neurological disorder, how about we call it a neurological variance. Because that is exactly what autism is. a VARIANCE. We are advocating for ourselves, and for others who cannot. We are speaking against those who would unjustly use us and our variance to line their pocketbooks with money from people made desperate for ‘cures’ because of propaganda and fear-mongering. Hell, there is a group of people who are shoving chlorine dioxide down their child’s throats and giving them enemas of this shit because of the fear mongering. It needs to stop. We want and need acceptance.

    • It’s identity politics. It doesn’t have to be rational and consistent. That isn’t the point. It’s us versus them. That is how groupthink works. It doesn’t matter the identity that is being obsessed over. It’s the same dynamic and plays out the same way. I understand the attraction of identity politics, but it can end up being counterproductive, not to mention irritating. Anyone who attempts to be an ‘ally’ will be attacked the most viciously, if they don’t utterly submit to the group.

  31. Autism research can get into murky ethical waters, however, when — as a result of failure to critically examine the biased assumptions that pervade our society — the primary goal is to force conformity on a minority population. I believe that researchers have an ethical obligation to consult with autistic individuals to determine their preferences, while respecting the validity of the autistic culture.

    There are many biased assumptions that often go unnoticed, as Cliff Schumacher pointed out in his comment. When a capable, well-educated autistic person cannot get a job because today’s hiring managers prefer applicants who do not appear autistic in the interview, this is just as discriminatory as a refusal to hire applicants who belong to any other minority group. It should be dealt with by improving the scope and enforcement of anti-discrimination laws, not by altering the brains of autistic people to make their speech patterns and body language become more acceptable to the intolerant.


    Reply to abfhQuote abfh
    Thank you for your comment.
    Submitted by Lindsay M Oberman Ph.D. on July 6, 2008 – 2:42pm
    Thank you for your comment. I would hope (and know to be true in my own research) that the “primary goal” is NOT to force conformity on a minority population, but rather to understand brain differences that result in developmental disorders and hopefully help those who want it. As a research subject you ALWAYS have the option to not participate and to understand what (if any) direct benefit you will get from your participation.
    Reply to Lindsay M Oberman Ph.D.Quote Lindsay M Oberman Ph.D.
    I think it would be relevant
    Submitted by Anonymous on July 3, 2008 – 9:07pm
    I think it would be relevant to point out to your readers that there is a growing consensus in the scientific community against dividing autism and Asperger’s. Tony Attwood, no slouch as far as ASD issues go, has stated that the scientific literature does not justify separate diagnostic categories (www.tonyattwood.com.au/articles/pdfs/attwood1.pdf (link is external)). My understanding is that the DSM-V may do away with the distinction.
    Reply to AnonymousQuote Anonymous
    This is certainly a debated
    Submitted by Lindsay M Oberman Ph.D. on July 6, 2008 – 2:45pm
    This is certainly a debated topic (see my previous entry on Asperger’s and Autism and the differences between them). Without having an objective nonbehavioral measure of autism, it is hard to say conclusively whether it is one disorder or two, or even several biological factors that lead to the same behavioral outcome is unclear.
    Reply to Lindsay M Oberman Ph.D.Quote Lindsay M Oberman Ph.D.
    Submitted by Anonymous on July 3, 2008 – 10:25pm
    As a high functioning autistic with a speech delay who went to special education schools for 8 years, has had trouble holding down a job, I must add my $.02 to the neurodiversity movement. First off, there is no evidence that einstein or gates had any autistic traits. I feel I have debunked that theory in my essay, http://www.jonathans-stories.com/non-fiction/undiagnosing.html (link is external) This is just another ploy of the neurodiversity movement.

    They are not at all representative of most on the autistic spectrum. The vast majority of them are females in spite ofa 4:1 ratio of males to females consistently reported in the literature. Many of them were not diagnosed well into adulthood, and only when they had children on the spectrum. Many of them hold down jobs and function well in society.

    I am 52 and never had a girlfriend and am unemployed. They claim they are advocating for human rights, but it seems to me all they do is start internet wars and insult people who don’t agree with them, funding organizations for curing autism, parents who are trying to help those kids and the rare pro-cure autistic person who publically writes on the internet trying to show them for what they are.
    Reply to AnonymousQuote Anonymous
    Thank you for your comment.
    Submitted by Lindsay M Oberman Ph.D. on July 6, 2008 – 2:51pm
    Thank you for your comment. My point in mentioning Bill Gates and Albert Einstein was to suggest that there are certain skills and abilities that often are “supernormal” in people with ASD and therefore would not want to be lost while trying to improve the behavioral deficits.
    Reply to Lindsay M Oberman Ph.D.Quote Lindsay M Oberman Ph.D.
    Regarding: Gender bias
    Submitted by Sia on June 23, 2015 – 11:48am
    Is that to do with actual genetics or is it do with females not getting diagnosed though?

    Like how women don’t get diagnosed with heart attacks as often as they should because the textbook is literally written on how heart attacks present in men.
    Reply to SiaQuote Sia
    “fixed” vs. acceptance
    Submitted by LarryG on July 5, 2008 – 5:42pm
    I agree with you that there is a neural basis for AS. I believe the disorder requires much more than just increasing society’s tolerance for neurodiversity.

    In fact, the controversy just goes on, with many strident opinions and different points of view. I believe that fact itself shows that whether we are parents, patients, educators, or researchers, we are very far from knowing what the exact nature of the disorder is, and the best way to handle it, for any specific individual.

    So, sure, your research is vital for that purpose, and your willingness to examine the ethical issues should be complimented. My point is that the individual parent, called to a meeting with school principal, etc., is told “All experts agree..” and “we must diagnose your child in order to help them..”. These statements are opinions, not facts, in my opinion. That is the key to the controversy.

    My opinion is that a less conclusive attitude, and more regard for the differences in individual kids, and a recognition that we don’t have all the answers, might be the quickest route to the deeper understanding needed to bring people together. That is the message I get from Mr. Solomon’s article.
    Reply to LarryGQuote LarryG
    Thank you for your comment.
    Submitted by Lindsay M Oberman Ph.D. on July 6, 2008 – 2:57pm
    Thank you for your comment. Yes, the true answer is WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT CAUSES AUTISM OR HOW TO CURE IT. We have theories, we have data to support and reject specific theories, but each child is different and there is no ONE answer for every child. The best thing we can do is keep an open mind and continue to head toward better understanding.
    Reply to Lindsay M Oberman Ph.D.Quote Lindsay M Oberman Ph.D.
    You know…
    Submitted by Anonymous on July 16, 2008 – 5:24pm
    …you really just end up sounding condescending and foolish when you speak in all capital letters, as if that will somehow better communicate what you want to get across.
    Reply to AnonymousQuote Anonymous
    Interesting post…having
    Submitted by nachtus01 on September 17, 2008 – 3:21am
    Interesting post…having aspergers, there are days, lol. i think it comes down to this.
    What I want, is to be me.
    I don’t think i want to be cured, maybe not even treated.
    There are days, when i do wish i understood social cues better, but then again, there are days that, I’m glad i don’t.
    Ultimately, I don’t know if you could ever cure AS for the better.
    The only reason I say this, is because even some of my “quirks”, the ones that make me “weird”, are beneficial to me, whether you understand them or not.
    For example, i do all my “best thinking”, when I pace. usually, i also tend to use hand gestures, and mumble, or even talk out loud while i do this.
    I have no doubt that this makes me look weird to some, totally nuts to others, but if i cant pace, verbalize, and use those hand gestures, i cannot seem to get into the deep thought processes I need to solve many of the deeper problems that i sometimes face.
    So, while you might be able to treat/cure that someday, in doing so, you would break me too.
    I already know what its like to “feel” broken. Please don’t make me “be” broken.
    Reply to nachtus01Quote nachtus01
    another dilemma…
    Submitted by Amanda on September 20, 2008 – 12:36pm
    One of the big dilemmas facing autistic people on the other hand, is a bit different:

    If we are unable to speak, or unable to get people to listen to us, we are automatically put in one category, by others. This category is not necessarily considered ‘low functioning’, although it can be. But the ultimate uniting factor among this category is, that it is then often presumed that those of us put into that category are best served by the agendas of relatively mainstream professional or parent groups.

    If we are able to speak, or otherwise able to get people to listen to us, we are put into a different category. We are presumed to be competent in all areas. We are presumed to be aligned in various other ways with the categories “high functioning” or “Asperger’s”, even if this is not the diagnostic status we actually have. We are deliberately kept separate from those in the other category, even if the difference between us and those in the other category is nothing at all innate, and even if we have been in both categories at different points in our lives. We are told that it might be okay to extend acceptance to us, but not to others, even if the line between ‘us’ and ‘others’ is in reality non-existent or blurry. We might also be declared non-autistic or ‘diagnosed’ (usually via Internet, which is not an accurate method of diagnosis) with some other condition, usually one that people are very prejudiced against such as various psychiatric disorders.

    Cal Montgomery wrote an excellent critique of this categorization scheme (as applied to disabled people in general, not just autistic people) in an article called Critic of the Dawn (link is external).

    Anyway, we are usually lost under these categories, and most people considering ethical questions never actually question the reality of these things. Mostly they see what their minds tell them to see, which might not be the same as what is actually there, given the very entrenched stereotypes that guide most people’s perception of disabled people in general.

    I have been in situations where nobody would believe I could have written what I am writing right now. Once it was declared in front of me by a medical professional (not a diagnostician, but still someone with power at the time) that I clearly had the mind of an infant, if that. This led to all kinds of discriminatory treatment, while I looked on, unable to prove otherwise, until my regular doctor came in and contradicted the guy. I am confident that if you showed this comment to the people who have seen me that way, they would not believe I wrote it. Especially given that in some such circumstances, even if I wrote something in front of them (with nobody touching me or anything, and typing faster than most of them could), they looked around to see where the trick was instead of believing I was writing.

    I have also been in situations where I could provide a little more superficial veneer of normality, and other people provided a whole lot of context in which every single autistic trait was passed of as something else entirely, which caused them to be unable to see all the autistic traits as actually related to each other (an online friend of mine calls this the difference slot (link is external), where if people already see you as one kind of different, all other aspects of you that are odd are presumed to be because of that difference. At any rate, a combination of me being a little better at some things at some times in my life, and the difference slot effect, has also at times created perceptions that there would be no way I was autistic. (Although a significant number of people who knew me at those times in my life reacted to my autism diagnosis with “So that’s what was going on” so this perception was far from universal.)

    As an autistic person, many times I am not allowed to have those two experiences in the same lifetime, or even at the same time (or on the same day at different times, etc.), and I am punished for having both experiences.

    I find that when I am, as Cal put it (read her article for the reference) mistaken for “Bruce,” then my opinions are discounted as non-existent and people assume that I would want whatever mainstream autism organizations want for me. If I do get opinions across at all, people assume that someone else is putting words in my mouth.

    When I am mistaken for “Mary,” then my opinions are discounted as irrelevant to the “real” or “severe” autistic people who are right then being put into the “Bruce” category. People assume that I am “very high-functioning” in all areas (usually they have a list of traits that I supposedly don’t have), or that I am not autistic at all but just want to make trouble.

    The categories are seen as real, and as mutually exclusive. Those of us who straddle both are either shoved into one or the other against our will, or else considered incredibly suspect. It is not recognized that these are, as Cal points out, caricatures, they are not the real people.

    Real people of course have varied opinions no matter what category we are in, and when people (even us ourselves) assume that our opinions stem from our being categorized one way or another, they are denying us the fact that we have minds that can consider information and come to different conclusions based on something other than our “functioning level”. Some of us view disability in one manner, some in another, and some in still another.

    By the way, I am not anti-science either. I am in fact becoming involved with scientists myself. Some of it is an attempt to get autistic-friendly communication aids to autistic people who need them. A number of autistic people who do not want autism itself eradicated, are involved, ourselves, in parts of the research community, and believe that some of what we do will be of assistance to other autistic people. There are of course a huge number of ways to assist autistic people without the goal being for us to be less autistic or non-autistic. Autistic people, after all, grow and change, just on a different trajectory than most people. Remaining autistic in no way means stagnation, lack of learning, or lack of growth.

    I am sorry for the length of the comment, and it seems you are not necessarily trying to put us into those categories. But I thought you should be aware that this is the dilemma autistic people face when we want to speak out, especially if we speak out against beliefs that many people with power cherish and hold dear. (That seems to be the time at which the personal attacks come out, as well as the people trying hard to divide us and assume what our lives are like and why.)
    Reply to AmandaQuote Amanda
    No Idea
    Submitted by laurentius-rex on January 11, 2009 – 5:59pm
    You simply have no idea do you?

    At one time an academic researcher, a philosopher, a scientist was someone who not only knew their own field but was au fait with literature and the arts, politics and society generally, someone who with a measure of support could undertake the rigours of any academic field.

    You and your colleagues have fallen far from that ideal in my opinion to the point at which one wonders just how much external and ecological validity your studies do have when considered from a wider perspective outside of your own narrow ken?

    I think I know autism (yes the whole spectrum) a great deal better than you do because I engage it from a civil rights perspective. You are so full of stereotypes. Yes I do as a researcher myself know all about the rigmarole one has to go through for approval, but I am not studying for idle curiosity or vainglory, I am studying to improve the lot of my people, who you continue to do down with your patronising attitudes. Helping us indeed!!!!! helping yourself in our name more like.

    You just would not know. Try studying sociology or philosophy to broaden your outlook a little.
    Reply to laurentius-rexQuote laurentius-rex
    Thank you for your
    Submitted by Lindsay M. Oberman, PhD on January 11, 2009 – 7:14pm
    Thank you for your perspective. I am sorry you have such a negative view of researchers.
    Reply to Lindsay M. Oberman, PhDQuote Lindsay M. Oberman, PhD
    No cure for Asperger’s
    Submitted by hcantrall on January 17, 2009 – 9:23am
    As the mother of a son with Asperger’s and the daughter of a man I believe to also have Asperger’s, I don’t like to call it a disorder. This may be my personal hang up but I honestly don’t see anything *wrong* with them. I don’t see it as a disorder, that term makes it sound like it is something to be fixed or cured and I don’t believe it needs to be or should be. I believe Asperger’s “Syndrome” is just a different way of being. Or a different *wiring* as others have mentioned and I do think it is genetic. I wouldn’t change my son for anything though, if someone offered me a *cure* right now, I wouldn’t want it and I don’t think he wants it. This is who he is.
    Just because the *normal* people label him as different doesn’t mean he is broken and needs a cure or to be fixed.
    Reply to hcantrallQuote hcantrall
    reply to No Cure for Asperger’s
    Submitted by Lindsay Oberman on January 20, 2009 – 3:56pm
    Thank you for your perspective. Many people feel the way you do and I agree for many individuals with Asperger’s Syndrome their “deficits” do not pose a major problem in their lives. They are able to live fulfilling, productive, lives. However, for many the deficits are real road blocks in their abilities to make friends, hold down jobs, meet mates, etc. And many lower functioning individuals have difficulties even in the most basic communicative skills. This is part of the problem in lumping the various levels of functioning together under one name. Clearly there is a spectrum here and it is not our goal as scientists to “fix” everyone to be whatever is deemed as “normal”. Rather, it is to have a better understanding of the disorder (or syndrome if you prefer) so that those that need or want treatment can receive treatment that actually targets the cause of the behavioral difficulties rather than the symptoms.
    Reply to Lindsay ObermanQuote Lindsay Oberman
    Two weeks ago I realized that
    Submitted by Anonymous on March 1, 2009 – 12:32pm
    Two weeks ago I realized that my father probably has Aspergers. I started reading online, and read that it presents differently in girls – the description given was a very close match for me in certain aspects. I feel a mix of devastation, shock, grief. All my life I have been hurt by my father’s apparent rejection of me and coldness towards me and other members of our family, but it all looks so different now. Everything about him is such a close match to the descriptions of Aspergers that I have been reading. It makes me wonder, if you took the syndrome away, what would be left? Who is he underneath all that? Who am I?

    If this TMS thing can switch on the parts of my brain that are not working, then I want it. I want to be able to read social behaviour automatically. I want to be aware of the emotional content of a sentence. In the past I have offended or upset people by saying something which to me was a statement of fact, but in which they perceived negative emotional content of which I was unaware.
    I want to be able to carry on a social conversation that isn’t about anything and goes nowhere in particular. Etc etc etc.
    Reply to AnonymousQuote Anonymous
    Reply to Anonymous
    Submitted by Lindsay Oberman on July 6, 2009 – 10:12am
    If you are interested in our research, feel free to contact our lab. Our website is tmslab.org
    Reply to Lindsay ObermanQuote Lindsay Oberman
    RE: no cure for asperger’s
    Submitted by Anonymous on July 4, 2009 – 9:42pm
    thank you for posting, hcantrall. i, too, am on the spectrum at various levels, and wish not to be “cured” of the way in which i view the world around me.
    Reply to AnonymousQuote Anonymous
    Reply to “No cure for Asperger’s”
    Submitted by Lindsay Oberman on July 6, 2009 – 10:25am
    I think that it is highly unlikely that if and when a “cure” becomes available that anyone would be forced to partake in it. Our research is designed to better understand the underlying brain mechanisms so that we can develop better treatments for those who are interested.
    Reply to Lindsay ObermanQuote Lindsay Oberman
    Theory to explain Asperger/Autism
    Submitted by Anonymous on February 6, 2010 – 1:05am
    Dr Oberman,

    I have built a theoretical model to explain Asperger/Autism, in which I have actual diagrammatic representations of Asperger/Autistic cognition wrt to cognition of non-Autistic variants and I am predicting mental condition(s) that maybe diametric opposite to Autism.

    I am not a scientist, but have a Technology and Business Strategy background and my model borrows from concrete Business Concepts – Capitalism to build a model and proxy evolution.

    As I am not a medical professional, it has become exceedingly difficult to show case my work. Please suggest how best can I get someone’s attention.

    Appreciate your feedback!
    Reply to AnonymousQuote Anonymous
    Just Pretend Nothing is Wrong?
    Submitted by Anonymous on March 7, 2010 – 7:35pm
    I don’t know why, but I don’t understand why people in the Autism Community does not want to do anything about it. Being on the Spectrum myself, I wish autism were just being weird, but unfortunately it isn’t. You are the perfect target of bullying, you’re very vulnerable, people can take advantage of you, you hurt other people’s feelings unknowingly, and many other things. Autism comes with high IQs and photographic memories just for a few lucky Autistics, not everyone. I have only an average IQ and on top of that I have learning disabilities. Can’t focus, very slow to get things done. I work very hard on getting tasks done such as school work, work assignments, and just getting organized, and I accomplish less than most people who put less effort than me. No, these people are not on the AS. They are very social and streetwise. I hate AS, but I don’t hate myself. I highly value my sense of moral and ethics, being a hard worker, and being good at math (not outstanding, but better than really sucking at it). I also take responsibility for my actions and never used AS as an excuse. Whenever people come to me and either say directly and/or imply that what I did and/or said is inappropriate, I say I’m sorry and do my best to correct my mistake. I also teach myself social skills, so I know how to approach people without being creepy and making them uncomfortable. I believe that we should adapt to the World, not the World to us. The handicapped (physically and mentally) at least make an effort to adapt to the World. The physically handicapped accept using wheelchairs rather than making people carry them around and spoon feeding them. The mentally handicapped also use their limited intelligence to learn new things and try to do as much as possible for themselves. If they have to compensate for their difficulties, we do too. The World does not revolve around AS. If we act as the World revolve around us, it is going to be unlikely that society will accept us. Communication and relationship is supposed to be two-sided, not one-sided. If you put yourself (at least give a try) on other people’s shoes, you will understand how people feel when their opinion is not respected and have their rights violated. Don’t get me wrong, I know that many AS people do their best to be respectful and considerate. But those few that act as if they are the center of the World is actually hurting the AS community, not helping. Love yourselves for who you are, but remember AS is not a personality, its a condition that keep you from showing the World who you really are.
    Reply to AnonymousQuote Anonymous
    This is political correctness to the extreme
    Submitted by Anonymous on November 25, 2011 – 1:33pm
    Kudos to Anon above (not me, and not the science geek before that who needs to stop building models and get a life). All too often the weirdos in the ASD “community” (I thought these were all nerds with imaginary friends?) makes excuses for their outlandish behavior and outright laziness by saying, “oh, but I have A$$burger’s.” (Yeah, so what, now get off your a$$ and go flip burgers.) The safety net (read: spoiled entitlement) of disability anti-discrimination statutes has given a lot of these wastrels an easy way out of responsibility. Good to see whoever that person is above not falling into the same pu$$y trap.

    But “neurodiversity”? Just another stupid attempt at political correctness, if you ask me. Wrong Planet Uranus and A$$h0les for Freedom remind me of the NAMBLA sickos who defended the kiddie-diddler Catholic priests, and are probably organizing an “Occupy Penn State” defense of Jerry Sandusky right now. Riiiight, because pedophilia is just an alternate way of “loving” your children.

    Seems nowadays everyone’s got to have a “pride” movement, and this whole thing about diversity, I think is out of control. I’m certainly not one for forcing women back into the kitchen, bringing back slavery, building concentration camps or raiding Stonewall, but sheesh, do we really have to give everyone “equal treatment” and laissez-faire “acceptance,” even the clinically insane, the profoundly retarded, and yes, the fap-happy flappers we consider “so speshul” for being able to recite the Chinese alphabet backwards, but who live in mom’s basement at 35 years old playing World of Warcraft and refusing to be potty-trained? Since when did giving a geek a wedgie and stuffing him/her in a high school locker become a hate crime?

    And “you betcha” (a la that retarded Alaskan Bullworm and mother of another retarded Repugnican), I see nothing wrong with depriving the world of Bill Gates or Albert Einstein. Allegedly brilliant but apparently so retarded they can’t even tolerate getting a damn decent haircut. Maybe if Gates went out and played sports, got beat up a little and toughened up rather than diddling with himself and his junior chemistry set, we probably wouldn’t have the Internet. Sure wouldn’t have an abundance of computers in every home, and you know what, we got along just fine for thousands of years without Cheeseburger videos and that damn talking paperclip. Einstein, all he gave us was his stupid theory, and you know what we got from it? The H-bomb and plastic. Both of which, I would say, could possibly play a BIG part in the skyrocketing rate of “baby Einsteins” (aka Idiocracy) that society has suffered since WWII.

    So no, I don’t think it should be accepted as an “alternate way of life” just like I don’t think “zooism” (the politically correct way of saying bestiality) should be accepted as an “alternate way of relationships,” nor cannibalism as an “alternate way of eating.” Used to be that mad scientists like Dollar Bill and Crazy Uncle Albert In a Can were demonized and feared as sociopathic, “calculating” (hence the Asspee love of mathematics versus the creative arts), and just downright evil. Now they’re an asset to society? Neurodiversity, in my definitely-definitely not so humble opinion, is nothing more than an alternate way of being stupid.
    Reply to AnonymousQuote Anonymous
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    • Trump is the best thing that has happened for the political left in a long time. He says blatant what everyone knows is believed by so many Republicans and right-wingers. It forces the bigotry to the surface. Political correctness normally hides such hate and ugliness. It’s almost a breath of fresh air to finally hear a bigot be honest and do so in the mainstream media. I take it as a step forward for our entire society. We can only deal with what we are willing to utter. Trump’s opinions being voiced are like the opening up of a smelly putrid wound. It’s the only way to clean it out.

    • I wonder about the intersectionality of gender and race/ethnicity in media. I’ll have to play closer attention to that.

      I immediately think of a show like Heroes where one of the main protagonists who dreams of being a hero is a Asian male named Hiro. Not only that but he ends up being quite the masculine badass in his fighting skills. But maybe that show is unusual.

      It makes me curious. I’m just not sure magazines are a good focus. As one person pointed out, physical magazines will skew toward older generations. It would be better to look at the gender and racial/ethnic breakdown of tv shows and movies.

  32. It doesn’t matter what the person’s ethnicity is because if they don’t at least respect their own culture/race then they can never be a whole person mentally or emotionally. All the racial self loathing will come out later in life especially when the looks fade and the fetish novelty wears out in these relationships.

    I’ve met and dated many people who are hapa (mixed white/asian) who either hated one part of their family or both. They were raised with all the insecurities and baggage of the asian parent and the hidden racism/prejudice of the white parent. It’s like a double dose of race complex.

    One positive thing about being asian male at least is that society does tend to naturally weed out the headcases, gold diggers, and extremely low self esteem women for us. These women are not drawn to Asian-American men at all because they are looking for image and status. I have realized that women who are truly open to dating based on the individual and not race status/stereotypes are very self assured and comfortable in their skin. This type of quality woman (or man) is not common. People tend to date stereotypes in America. White women want the black thug stereotype to turn to them out. White men want the asian submissive stereotype. Minorities play into these roles. Asian men really have no positive male stereotypes in America so women either look at us on the individual level or not at all.

  33. Wow. Shit is serious. I read a blog post about a bw who’s living in Asia. And she was commenting on how the wm there were being really mean and racist, they couldn’t believe that a bw was travelling in Asia. They were making snide remarks, saying that she was ugly right in front of her with these Asian women of theirs. Anyway, this Asian man starting bitching in the comments section about how he’d get all the Asian gangs, the triad, Yazuko (I know I spelt it wrong) to beat up the white dudes who were taking their women. He’s going on about how Asia is the last hope for Asian men, and how other races should stop going to Asia to get with their women. That the Asian women in Asia were the last hope for Asian men and that Asia is for Asian men only. Unfortunately for him and the other Happier Abroad guy, it seems like wm are KANGS in Asia. Even a black guy was bitching about how bm couldn’t get play in Asia. Shit is bananas, man.
    Reply With Quote
    11-06-2013, 02:49 PM #156
    Jodie Landon

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    Re: What’s really going on with Asian women?
    Originally Posted by Oga at the top
    Wow. Shit is serious. I read a blog post about a bw who’s living in Asia. And she was commenting on how the wm there were being really mean and racist, they couldn’t believe that a bw was travelling in Asia. They were making snide remarks, saying that she was ugly right in front of her with these Asian women of theirs. .
    Who cares what those insecure white men have to say. Most of the white men who go with asian women are homely looking nerds from what I have noticed. . Is this what some women in Asia find most desirable?

    Reply With Quote
    Big Daddy . Bettie Page . 11-06-2013, 03:00 PM #157
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    Re: What’s really going on with Asian women?
    Yeah, I bet it’s those insecure wm escaping from the “evil Western women”. Basically, they’re taking their rejection out on innocent black owomen. They basically think that they own and rule Asia and now they have a problem with black women also travelling there.

  34. ”Chinese seem to confuse their race with their nationality. Their loyalties are therefore questionable”


  35. These comments basically PROVe the point wtf.

    I guess you can tell I have little love for hypocritical westerners. FYI China has been no crueler to Africa than the west. if anything China is treating africa better than the west treated them under colonialism

    ”While there is no doubt about Canada’s racist history towards Chinese, East Indians & First Nations that is NO longer the Mainstream.

    Instead Communist China & it’s supporters are practising Racism and indeed Genocide (TIBET) on a Global basis.

    In Africa Communist China Government supported Resource Development live in GATED ETHNIC HAN ONLY Compounds, ditto in some parts of South America.

    In Canada Communist China is using Corporate Law & the new Trade Treaty with Canada to give it’s Communist State Controlled Companies (Any Company large or Small must toe the Communist Party line and be a SERVANT of the Communist Party).

    Communist China & most Communist Han Chinese are supporters of the Racist and Anti-Immigrant policy in China.

    Canada vs China Racism.

    I find it illogical to tie in the Union movement which is based upon a long history of poor immigrant labour to Racism.

    In fact the Unions are fighting for Canadians rights vs ANY Foreign Corporate Import Labour.

    Mr. Wong makes Factual events sound like Racism and/or slights against ‘Chinese People’ when that’s simply not the Case.

    For example mostly wealthy by Canadian standards Hong Kong Chinese migrated in to Canada in the 1990’s fearing the Communist China takeover of Hong Kong.

    In FACT that and the subsequent mainland wealthy Chinese buying property DID and DOES drive up Property Prices more than it would otherwise.

    Perhaps Mr. Wong needs to reacquaint himself with Supply & Demand Economics 101.

    Communist China Threat.

    If Mr. Wong thinks that Communist China is not a great threat to Canada perhaps he has his head in the Sand.

    Mr. Wong China has specifically targeted Canada both Politically and Militarily by way of Cyber Warfare infiltrating Canada’s almost ALL of Canada’s I.T Government Infrastructure.

    Politicly Communist China has put in place a wide range of DUAL Citizens who have Business & Communist Party Ties as Candidates in Canada Federal Elections across the Country from virtually all the major parties.

    Mr. Wong Chinese business in Canada employ mostly ethnic Chinese is that not Racist?

    Mr. Wong why do you GLOSS OVER & NOT Call to Account the violations of Racism & Human Rights by Communist China? Afraid it may hurt business?

    No one is suggesting that Canada is perfect & some racism does not exist but Canada is FAR more tolerant than most Countries and your examples are Bogus.

    18563Rating: +122
    Feb 7, 2013 at 10:24am
    Well it seems the Tension currently is stemming from housing prices? I mean friends of the family are from China and have bought three houses over the last 10years, all over million and one in point grey now. And well since our family was born in Canada we cant afford houses in Vancouver. But that being said i’d move here too, but look at Orange County California, thats a major destination of asian people too, the huge local mall had as many asians as richmond. And if you read what is happening do you blame them for leaving their country? where ownership of property is not allowed but borroed from Government for a set number of years [usually 99] so you cant leave anything to your children

    Because I doubt people are complaining about inexpensive dinners at dimsum places or what not

    7299Rating: -27
    Mark Bowen
    Feb 7, 2013 at 10:46am
    Bullshit that this is about racism. What a weak ass diversion attempt.

    This is about China the COUNTRY (and handing over our resource wealth to them so that a handful of Canadian investors can get insanely rich to the detriment of the rest of our nation), NOT Chinese PEOPLE, period.

    21561Rating: +154
    Feb 7, 2013 at 11:00am
    Reading through the comments above, I find that no one agree with the rise of anti-Chinese sentiment, and yet all of these comments are left by apparent non-Chinese readers.

    73161Rating: -88
    Feb 7, 2013 at 11:02am
    White Canadians will always be racist against Chinese. Its a fact. luckily we are strong in numbers here in Vancouver so we arent afraid.

    78263Rating: -185
    Victor Wong
    Feb 7, 2013 at 11:10am
    There is an anti-China bias in much of the mainstream reporting today and this leads to racialization of issues and anti-Chinese sentiment here in Canada.

    Back in 2011, a little girl in China was run over by a vehicle and passersby ignored her. There were at least 8 differnt stories about this on CNN. Workers ignored an Ontario woman who was injured in front of a local hospital – I saw one story in the Toronto Star.

    Numerous news stories quote China as a rising power which sounds like a line out of The Lord of the Rings. The reality is that 200 years ago, China and India made up more than 60% of the world’s GDP and this was the reason that Britain and other European countries sought trade ideology arrangements, then concessions, and then unfair treaties. A racist ideology emerged from this period and exists in our attitudes and approaches today.

    The anti-China bias crowds out the real controversy around the Chinese coal mine investments. Should BC be extracting carbon-print-coal for export? I’m not sure if we’ve had a proper debate about this. If exports are ok – presumably for the jobs and economic benefits, then should Canadian workers be hired and trained for these jobs? The foreign temporary worker’s program has become a subsidy for companies where they are able to recruit workers from overseas, legally pay them up to 15% less than Canadian workers and avoid training cost for local workers. Such a strategy at this point in the economic cycle where there is a labour surplus (ie. 5 unemployed workers for every job vacancy in Canada) is bound to generate resentment.

    One solution is to call a timeout and get all the stakeholders – the company, the federal, provincial and municipal authorities and the unions into one mediation, one that respects Canadian workers.

    Victor Wong
    Chinese Canadian National Council

    107163Rating: -56
    Feb 7, 2013 at 11:59am
    from what I see – many are brainwashed from years of Communist programming, unable to think, socialize and contribute like many westerners have been brought up in Democracy. China is not very compatible with Canadian values system of Democracy and thus Canadian immigration should be directed to democratic countries like the commmonwealth and South America. In my experience at work and in school the Chinese were not keen to learn Canadian culture or make friends outside of the Asian culture, nor did they display much desire to do so. Coming to Canada is more than getting off a plane and acting as thought you are still in your old country. I expect it will get worse in Canada with Canadians demanding the govt change immigration policy. A friend whose parents immigrated in 1960 seemed to integrate quite well – why are those coming now failing to do so?

    15769Rating: +88
    Feb 7, 2013 at 12:01pm
    There are two sides of this situation. Yes there are a lot of idiot racists out there, who are singling out Chinese for questionable activities that many other groups do just as often. But, there are also legitimate reasons why people may have issues with Chinese immigration and business activity in BC.

    Take the environment issue for example. While this is of course a generalization, it is pretty apparent that Chinese-Canadians ON AVERAGE care less than your average Vancouverite about the environment. Styrofoam containers, unsustainable meat and seafood, it’s all on show at a higher proportion of Chinese restaurants than others.

    The problem is this kind of talk is not really allowed in public conversation in Canada, and so it becomes difficult to try to improve a problem that no one will publicly admit exists.

    I think we would do a lot to lower anti-Chinese sentiment if we were more open about communication, and then things wouldn’t quietly simmer so much, then leading to periodic outbursts that lead to accusations of BC being a “racist” place.

    Also, agree with others who say that it is very important for Chinese people to not play the race card and imply that criticism of the Chinese government and their horrific policies in African and elsewhere is simply out of racism. That will only cement negative attitudes towards them.

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