Racists Losing Ground: Moral Flynn Effect?

I’ve been ‘debating’ with the new variety of racist who denies being racist. He claims that it isn’t his fault that he is prejudiced against blacks, because he believes their supposed inherent inferiority means they don’t deserve to be treated as equal.

See? He isn’t racist. He is just being realistic. It’s race realism.

Then again, I’m not sure this kind of racism is genuinely new. Your average Klansman or slave owner probably never thought of themselves as racists. They too surely thought they were being realistic. It was just the way the world was. The races were distinctly different. Some people were just better than others from birth. It requires no modern understanding of genetics to think this way.

Anyway, what blows my mind about this ‘realism’ is how unrealistic it is. This guy will point to a few facts and argue it proves he is right. Yet at the same time he will dismiss or simply ignore the dozens of sources of data that I offer. Then later on he will act like all that contrary info doesn’t exist.

It’s a strange cognitive blindness. In some ways, I think he is absolutely sincere in his unacknowledged racism. He isn’t being a troll. He just lacks any sense of objectivity. He simply cannot see what doesn’t fit his worldview. It is the ultimate form of political correctness. He doesn’t merely deny the validity or moral worth of what he disagrees with, for he denies its very existence. What isn’t politically correct in his mind has no compelling sense of ‘reality’ in his experience.

At times, I’d call this willful ignorance. But as I’ve come to believe, I doubt that such people have enough self-awareness to be willful about much of anything. It is so deep in their psyche that it isn’t a decision they make. Their brains are straight-up incapable of processing divergent information.

He is a perfect example of confirmation bias and the backfire effect, which according to studies does strongly correlate to social conservatism and prejudice. One of the saddest results of this is that it has been demonstrated that white people, when presented with evidence of racism, become more racially biased (and undoubtedly, along with it, more socially conservative).

I’d bet a similar pattern is even found with white liberals. It might be along the lines of how liberals who saw video of the 9/11 attacks became more supportive of Republican policies of War on Terrorism. Liberalism gives some protection against such reactionary stances, but even liberalism has a tough time resisting the persuasion of fear.

The difference is important, though, in that conservatives live in a near permanent state of fear that is just below the surface. This takes the form of a background sense of anxiety, a need for order, and a strong disgust response. It is why social conservatism isn’t just correlated to prejudice, but also repulsion toward rotten fruit and hypochondria.

It is also why social conservatives and racists have on average lower IQs. In the studies, it is shown that conservatives have less capacity for abstract thought and cognitive load. To put it simply, they can’t deal well with either complex thought processes or anything that demands too much simultaneous cognitive activity.

This is why conservatives prefer highly focused activities. Conservatives do have a talent for excluding things from their focus, what is called a thick boundary (and for some activities this is an advantage; e.g., surgery). This is obviously related to such things as racism and xenophobia, as a thick boundary also means excluding people from their psychological experience and social identity.

Categories seem more rigid to those on the political right, and racists embody this most clearly. They take reification to heart. An idea like race is never just an idea to them. It doesn’t matter to them that a scientific consensus has formed in support of the view that the folk taxonomy of races is a social construct, rather than a scientifically valid category.

Those on the political right are constantly complaining about liberal political correctness. I’m not saying that political correctness isn’t found on the left, but I don’t think that is what is fueling the complaint. There is an obvious component of projection involved.

I’m not being politically correct when I disagree with racists. I’m not denying the data they cherrypick. I simply point out that they are ignoring a lot of data and alternative interpretations. The data doesn’t speak for itself. There is nothing about the data that forces one to become a racist. Prejudice is what we bring to the data, not what the data proves.

I’ve often argued with racists that I’m not arguing for any particular position. I don’t have a dogmatic ideology to defend, as does the racist. I’m open to multiple perspectives. I’m even open to genetics and culture playing a role, but I’m also open to there being a complex interplay between those factors and everything else, from epigenetics to environmental conditions. Anyone who has to defend a preconceived conclusion and deny all that contradicts it isn’t taking the issue seriously on its own terms.

The problem is there isn’t an even playing field in such ‘debates’. The average non-racist is more intelligent than the average racist. It isn’t even about education, as even when confounding factors such as education are controlled for, this IQ disparity persists. Even more well educated racists tend to have lower IQs than those of comparable education levels.

The ironic part of this is that this phenomenon is largely environmental. As Stephanie Pappas over at Live Science explained:

“People with lower cognitive abilities also had less contact with people of other races.

“”This finding is consistent with recent research demonstrating that intergroup contact is mentally challenging and cognitively draining, and consistent with findings that contact reduces prejudice,” said Hodson, who along with his colleagues published these results online Jan. 5 in the journal Psychological Science.”

So, interacting with those who are different not only decreases prejudice but also increases intelligence. The two are inseparable. This supports the argument for the Moral Flynn Effect, rising cognitive capacity parallels rising moral capacity, for both depend on brain health and mental development.

The other irony is that it is low IQ racists who are prone to dismiss blacks because of their lower on average IQs. The two demographics are similar, as both demographics have higher rates of social conservatism. The hatred racists feel toward blacks probably is closely linked to an awareness of their similarities. It’s the reason my working class grandfather hated blacks. It’s why so many groups in American society have clung to their group identities, of course seeing their group as better than all others.

Social conservatism also correlates to lower economic class. When one lacks economic security, a sense of group solidarity becomes all the more important, be it solidarity of race, ethnicity, religion, or whatever. Furthermore, the conditions of being on the poorer end of the scale are less conducive toward optimal brain development. The lower classes are more likely to have nutritional deficiences, to live in food deserts, to miss meals because of lack of money, to be exposed to toxic environments, to experience more social stress and child abuse, etc. Studies again and again show the massive impact this has on the developing brain.

An example of this is that social conservatives, both white and black, have stronger support for spanking children. Studies have shown that spanking children correlates to lower IQ. I’m not sure the causal link is proven, but it seems plausible that the regular stress of being hit by one’s parents could cause stunting of cognitive development. It is known that other forms of stress have a direct causal impact on brain growth.

Sure, poor minorities get hit the worst by these dire conditions. But it’s not as if all whites are middle and upper class. Poor whites show all the same kinds of cognitive issues and social problems.

Racism is a bit different, though. The more overt forms of bigotry are more common among the lower classes. Yet, even when poverty is controlled for, racists still show lower IQs. Other aspects of the social environment are just as important as poverty. For example, white flight to the suburbs and later gentrification created the conditions of low diversity, the very factor most closely associated with prejudice. What these wealthier whites share with the poorer whites is this racial homogeneity of their respective communities, as even poor whites tend not to live around as many blacks, poor or otherwise.

On the opposite side, it doesn’t take wealth to make someone more likely to be socially liberal as an adult. It only requires a diverse environment in childhood, especially in the context of a large peer group. The more friends a child has and the more diverse are those friends the more that the child will likely be socially and cognitvely challenged, which is to say that later on they will more likely be less racist and more intelligent, specifically fluid intelligence that includes abstract thinking skills.

When dealing with racists, you are on average dealing with people who have less cognitive capacity. They aren’t pretending to not understand what seems obvious to the non-racist. They really don’t understand.

Dogmatic ideology and groupthink are heuristics. They are ways to simplify thinking. When someone has less capacity for complex thought and abstract thought, they need to rely more on heuristics. A lower IQ racist doesn’t treat people as individuals, which would require greater cognitive load than they are capable of. Instead, they just have to see the outward physical features and apply the appropriate ideological category. This allows for easy pre-formed responses to complex realities.

The Moral Flynn Effect gives us some hope. Even the average conservative has a higher IQ than in the past. They are also less overtly bigoted. I think there is a connection between the two. Racism, if it is to continue to decrease, will have to lessen across generations. Those who are racist right now will likely remain racist, but their children will on average be slightly less racist than they are. This is particularly true as the younger generations move into more diverse urban areas.

However, there are other factors moving in the opposite direction. Some police departments are intentionally refusing to hire anyone with IQs that are too high. This means that they are purposely selecting for police officers who will be more prejudiced. Research has also confirmed that police with less education are more likely to abuse their authority and to support violent tactics used in their departments. It is disturbing to consider that the average police officer has an IQ lower than that of the average secretary and the police profession has an IQ range about the same as that of auto mechanics.

It’s unsurprising that one of the results seen is all the data showing that police have racial biases, which they act on (e.g., more likely to shoot an unarmed black person than an armed white person, and this with the data showing whites are more likely to carry illegal weapons). I’m willing to bet the higher IQ officers act in less biased ways. The problem is that policing plays right into racist beliefs. Racially biased cops arrest more blacks even for crimes whites commit at higher rates. Then racist whites point to this arrest data as proof blacks are more violent and criminal.

An interesting point to consider is that studies show, as lower educated police are more abusive, lower educated and lower IQ people in general are more abusive. Most hate crimes are racially motivated. I’m sure lower IQ racists are on average more likely to be violent and criminal, or at the very least more condoning of the violence used against minorities (both private and state-sanctioned). Stand-your-ground laws, for example, have been shown to increase the number of blacks who get legally killed and the number of whites who get away with such murders. Of course, social conservatives, in particular the most racially biased, are fine with this.

There isn’t much we can do about the present generation of racists. The best response is to promote the factors that decrease the dynamic of low intelligence and high prejudice. For certain, we should make sure that the most important positions in society are filled by the most intelligent people, even as we seek to raise up the intelligence of the entire population.

I disagree with race realists that IQ is genetically determined. Even the average low IQ of racists isn’t simply a fate we must accept. Racists are as much victims of their environments as are the minorities they are racist against.

* * * *

Bright Minds and Dark Attitudes:
Lower Cognitive Ability Predicts Greater Prejudice Through Right-Wing Ideology and Low Intergroup Contact
by Gordon Hodson and Michael A. Busseri

Do Racism, Conservatism, and Low I.Q. Go Hand in Hand?
Lower cognitive abilities predict greater prejudice through right-wing ideology.
by Goal Auzeen Saedi

Low IQ & Conservative Beliefs Linked to Prejudice
by Stephanie Pappas

Intelligence Study Links Low I.Q. To Prejudice, Racism, Conservatism
by Rebecca Searles

Liberal or Conservative: Study Finds Childhood Influence
Did you talk back to your parents? Were you fearful or focused?
by U.S. News

White People Are Fine With Laws That Harm Blacks
The futility of fighting criminal justice racism with statistics.
by Jamelle Bouie

The Science of Why We Don’t Believe Science
How our brains fool us on climate, creationism, and the vaccine-autism link.
by Chris Mooney

High IQ = Liberal, Atheist, Monogamous
by James Joyner

Can Someone Be Too Smart To Be A Cop?
By Katie Rucke

Too smart to be a good cop
By Razib Khan

Police Brutality and Deadly Force; How Bias, Power and Lower IQs Kill
by Thomas Parisi

Ferguson And Keeping High-IQ Folks Out Of The U.S. Police Force
by Gary Robinson

Do You Have A High IQ Score And Want To Be A Cop?… Forget It!
Submitted by SadInAmerica

Modern IQ ranges for various occupations
By IQ Comparison Site

Average IQ by occupation (estimated from wordsum scores)
by Audacious Epigone

The Impact of Higher Education on Police Attitudes Regarding Abuse of Authority
by Cody Webb Telep

Use of Force in Minority Communities is Related to Police Education, Age, Experience, and Ethnicity
by Christopher Chapman

284 thoughts on “Racists Losing Ground: Moral Flynn Effect?

  1. The conservatism thing is interesting. A lot of East Asian societies are seen as conservative, but also high iq.

    In reality the conservatism of these places of more complex than “we liberal, they conservative” though. East Asia is a dynamic, ever-changing region

    • I’m not sure Western categories accurately describe Eastern demographics. What Westerners perceive as ‘conservative’ in East Asia might have more to do with culture and thinking styles than with political views. I’m thinking of the research done in China showing that the differences in attitudes tracked closely to rice-growing areas and wheat-growing areas. I don’t know the implications of that, but it complicates things. The West doesn’t have much rice-growing nor the worldview that formed around it. High IQs might express differently in non-Western cultures.

    • Also, I’d point out that conservatism isn’t the same thing as traditionalism. East Asia has its own unique traditionalism, but that is just as likely to express in ways that some might interpret as liberal.

      My views are heavily influenced by Corey Robin. He offers a more nuanced understanding than is found in mainstream political thought. Here is his most recent post:


      “When it comes to past and future, they show, the left can be as ambidextrous as the right. What’s more, it may be the left’s ability to look backward while marching forward that explains its most potent moments of power and possibility.”

    • The second link is actually a good article. Black poverty is different. It is because economic segregation goes hand in hand with a history of racial segregation.

      Poor blacks are trapped in a way that poor whites aren’t. A poor white can move to a wealthier neighborhood and blend in more easily. This has happened for generations, which is how so many whites made into the middle class. Blacks, on the other hand, faced such roadblocks as redlining.

  2. Which is to say, if you want better economic opportunities for yourself and your descendants, it is going to require Asian American men to work together with everyone else in the US — white, black, Latino, male , female, trans, whatever. Any talk of “going it alone” is pure fantasy, as much now as it ever has been. But this is more than simple coalition politics — no, this is about narrative. From a political perspective one of the ways that economic stabilization faltered in the late 1960s was simple racism. It is no mistake that the moment that Black people stepped up and asked for an equal share of the economy, that all of a sudden white nationalists started screaming about communism and defunding public infrastructure, from pools to schools. As much as it may pain some of you to hear it, unless black people get free, none of us get free — because race will always be a convenient wedge to ensure that the economic system benefits only a few. Look around at your student loans, at your credit cards, at rising housing rents and escalating housing prices in the places with good jobs and tell me — don’t you want something better than that?

  3. Isn’t that 2050 thing including all POC in comparison to whites? Whites will still be the biggest racial group. And Latinos are the ones driving up that growth, whom a lot of identify as white anyway… Nothing’s gonna change really.
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    [–]eehello 2 points 10 days ago
    non hispanic whites will go down to 50%. right now the white definition includes Egyptians, arabs and brown skinned looking hispanics. like george zimmerman was classified as a white hispanic. There are white hispanics, dont get me wrong, but america is really portraying an inflated number of white people.

    • It will be an interesting experiment. Racial oppression will be harder and harder to maintain. What will ‘minorities’ do once they realize they have the population numbers to finally dominate and determine local politics?

  4. Lol

    I disagree. Admiral Zheng He took s large enough fleet to colonize a good chunk of Africa but didn’t. He traded with them and bought a giraffe to show the emperor at the time. A large problem with white thinking is universalizing the history of European genocide and applying it to everyone else in the world.

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    [–]Hong KongBananaBoyJunior 8 points 3 hours ago
    Could not agree with you more. This is so true!

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    [–]IndiaPrateekBhatmal 6 points 3 hours ago
    Its because Whites are a sociopathic group. Its why America always needs a war to keep the blood lust at home satisfied.

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    [–]IndiaPrateekBhatmal 7 points 3 hours ago*
    universalizing the history of European genocide and applying it to everyone else in the world.

    Yes! Absolutely. These morons can’t figure out that inter-civilizational interaction can happen without wars and genocides. After all, all their inter-civilizational interactions have only happened through wars – from Alexander to the Iraq War.

    I wonder how Buddhism spread from India to China to Japan and SE Asia I wonder. Surely through wars!

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    [–]chuho1 2 points an hour ago
    There is also evidence of Chinese/Japanese culture/art in central/south america and Malaysians also sailed to Madagascar and colonized it. They were either completely assimilated or the races merged together. The natives weren’t wiped out or completely displaced like it happens with whites.

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    [–]redditors_are_racist 2 points an hour ago
    And it’s not even like the Chinese were the most munificent and best people people in the world either. Despite 1000 years of attempted colonization and genocide the Vietnamese people still exist today as a people, culture, and language.

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    [–]itstheyear3030 1 point 54 minutes ago
    The US probably did more damage to Vietnam in two decades than China did in centuries.

  5. This is actually kind of complicated, apart from the major fact that the mods of r/China pretty much hate China lol. I’ll try to describe the whole picture so you have a clear image on why r/China is infested with bottom feeders, and where a lot of the hate comes from.

    Reddit is a western forum aggregate, so the viewpoints are dominantly pro-western, while the demographics are overwhelmingly not Chinese.

    People surround themselves with those who are similar. People also don’t like to put in the effort to embrace things they are alien to. There is intense culture shock when a westerner goes to China, and clashing ways of life generate lots of friction. There is also rampant corruption, and quite frankly, inordinate amounts of obsolete stupidity in many dealings of life and business. It’s hard to deal with.

    Many Chinese folks rarely see a white person, and as such a white dude in China will get unwanted attention all the time. It’s not so bad in Beijing or Shanghai, but keep in mind that many foreign workers don’t get the opportunity to work in these cities. After a while, I imagine the feeling of always being treated as a foreigner must be incredibly grating. They also don’t speak the native language well. If Asians who grew up in the west speaking perfect English (and can completely converse) aren’t ever fully accepted, then there’s no chance in hell for full acceptance of white dudes in China who can barely speak Chinese while here on a work visa. Some people even want to embrace the culture and be a Chinese citizen, but they are not ever allowed as they are perpetually foreigners. It’s not a good feeling. Humans are social creatures, we want to be accepted by others. This rejection only serves to breed resentment and hatred.

    In addition, some people just couldn’t cut it back in their own country, and had to work in China knowing that they are rejects. If downgrading to China was because of no other circumstances, this naturally implies that China is lower tier than their own country, which creates a superiority complex in these foreign workers. They hate their environment, their situation , but they can’t change anything and can only drown their pain in superficial bandages. They need an outlet to vent their frustrations, (which they can’t get in China) and you know, it’s those who are unsatisfied whom let their thoughts flow. If things are fine and dandy, there’s no urge to protest really. A sizable segment of r/China is indeed filled with these rejects, but it looks much worse than it really is, as the people who don’t really care that much -well, they don’t really care enough to post haha. Many people on there are actually quite knowledgeable and honestly people I wouldn’t mind sharing a drink with, they’re just not very commonly seen on the subreddit.

    Piggybacking to my previous paragraph, about the superiority complex. There are also those in r/China who work in China as professionals or higher management, to provide their western expertise so China can catch up in many areas. It’s hard to not be arrogant when you’re in China imparting your superior knowledge to the locals and instructing them on what to do and how to do it. It is very easy for them to think of themselves as superior to the Chinese. The truth is, China IS inferior in many aspects currently, so we can only grit our teeth and play catch up with all our might while trying to get rid of the many stupidities rooted in our culture that’s tying us down.

    In conclusion, it’s a mix of several factors. Reddit is a gathering place for westerners, and the mods of r/China hate China. Culture clash, deeply rooted problems within China, and institutionalized ‘segregation’ (essentially living with the fact that they can never be one of us) is REALLY hard to live with. These massive issues breed a shit ton of resentment. Westerners look down upon China because it is behind. Trash from western countries relegated to China try to drink and fuck their shitty life away. The same trash hates their life in China with a passion, so they make the most noise on the subreddit. Combine all this together and bam, you have r/China!

  6. There are some Russians who have been living in China for centuries around Xinjiang/Heilongjiang/Neimenggu, there’s a reason they’re officially recognised as one of China’s 56 minorities.

    Have a look at this short documentary: https://youtu.be/2rS30IjG05c https://youtu.be/RZCNigMEIAo

    The way he talks and acts makes him look like a Chinaman himself. I have absolutely no problem with him being considered part of Chinese society and I doubt most Hans would either, in contrast to all the white fuccbois in /r/China, which I’m sure has nothing to do with their superiority complex, hate for anything Chinese, and living in exclusive Shanghai enclaves.

    The former First Lady of ROC/Taiwan is Belarussian too.

    • I’m sure that China and Russia could become strong allies in future global conflicts. There is some shared history and geographical concerns linking the two. Between the two of them, they control large area of land and coastline.

  7. I dunno mang but I think it’s a complicated mixture of white men being simultaneously empowered and disempowered in China. Empowered as in they get higher-paying jobs than most locals with little effort and a endless supply of 4s and 5s with white fetishes. They’re disempowered in that they do experience a lot of passive-aggressive shit on a daily basis that they’ve never had before living in their white-majority countries. Chinese girls who date white guys are also batshit insane which makes it hard for them too.

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    [–][deleted] 6 points 1 month ago
    most of those guys are English teachers, and that’s increasingly not a high paying job.

    [–]Chinaproper_b_wayne 2 points 1 month ago
    Still higher than 80% of China with essentially 0 effort.

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    [–]juanqunt 2 points 1 month ago
    maybe if you count the rural population, but they are pretty damn average in big cities.

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    [–]Chinaproper_b_wayne 3 points 1 month ago
    Yes, of course I am counting the rural population. Why would I not?

    They are just as much our brothers suffering an even more severe version of our problems.

    Also, even with city folks, the amount of effort needed for an average Chinese city dude to earn equivalent is much more than the average white ESL sexpats.

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    [–]juanqunt 1 point 1 month ago
    The white english teachers aren’t living in rural areas, so you don’t compare apples to oranges.

    By your logic, there is no white privilege because I’m far better off than rednecks.

    Your last point is kinda true, but that’s economics: scarcity of a type of skilled labor. The market is self correcting and this market is only getting worse and worse. So they are just middle class with more free time than most people, but they have no real power or influence.

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    [–]lottikey 3 points 1 month ago
    They’re disempowered in that they do experience a lot of passive-aggressive shit on a daily basis that they’ve never had before living in their white-majority countries.

    I’m sure some of it is due to some personal prejudices from others, but I bet a lot really comes down to them not wanting to put effort in assimilating the bare minimum and locals not wanting to put up with entitlements. I see the same happen in Ghana (sure plenty of other African countries too) where my family is from. Yes, locals may just not want to deal with (white) foreigners, but often the foreigners cause ruckus, don’t want to bother with learning the culture beyond the surface, don’t want to learn the language (they don’t have to be fluent next day, but some teeny effort), not act above everyone for being white and western, etc.

    I want to know…would these same white people get as much passive aggressive behavior if they tried to speak Mandarin, Cantonese, etc., tried to mingle more with the locals, tried to listen and understand instead of assuming too much, not make racist/classist comments against the Chinese people/other Asian people? I seriously doubt it. White people in Ghana who say like three words in Twi (the main native language) get worshiped and crowned the next mayor which is pathetic. I feel like (hopefully not to the level I described prior), the white people would get warmer responses if they didn’t go around as if it’s America or some colonial land where they’d be perpetually revered. IDK

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  8. My theory is that people outwardly hate the most when they consider you a threat. Notice that the expats are less hateful and cynical in the SE Asian countries which are worse shape than China.

    Japan, Korea, HK and every other SE Asian countries are perceived to be on the west’s side and not a threat, while China is seen to be a threat.

    Also, those white expats can hide their sense of superiority very well towards asians. As long as they are treated superior in Asia, why shouldn’t they act outwardly polite with the country or its people?

    The true test is when you surpass them and threaten their social position, then the ugliness comes out. If you hear what WF expats report, (i.e. when they date a Japanese man, they get hit with shit tons of dismissive comments towards their man) you can see signs that there is no true respect from these white expats.

    Only if you out-compete them and they still are friendly, then that’s real good-natured-ness. Else, it is just fake politeness to make the “exploitation of their advantage” process go smoother.

  9. [–]ThailandasianmascthrowawayAA 1 point 1 month ago
    I’ve heard this idea throw around here, before and read this: http://www.reddit.com/r/AsianMasculinity/comments/2yvkcl/thoughts_of_an_asian_male_who_grew_up_in_africa/

    Hierarchical thinking is deeply ingrained in traditional Asian (Confucian) culture.

    Confucian thought values obedience/submission to your superiors: sons obey fathers, minsters obey their lieges, students obey their teachers, etc.

    The relationship between Asia and the West has been highly asymmetrical for the past few centuries.

    Not surprisingly, Asians view Westerners as superior both culturally and physically. Westerners currently occupy the pinnacle of the cultural-racial hierarchy in Asian minds.

    Currently, many Asians view the West as a benevolent teacher whose greatness must be absorbed and emulated. The asymmetrical relationship between Asia and the West could almost be likened to a Confucian teacher-student relationship from the Asian perspective. Asia is eager to learn the ways of and emulate the success of the wise and powerful West. This has been going on for quite a while, and Asia is still far from catching up.

    In Asian culture, students must show teachers the utmost respect. In extreme cases, this respect almost reaches the level of worship. Indeed, many Asians view the West as a fountain of wisdom and a model of development, power, and prosperity. Of course, the West (especially America) views itself as the leader of the world, the light-bearer, the standard-setter, the guardian of civilization and progress. In Western eyes, Asia is merely a developing region yet to meet the Western standard of civilization…and a potential rival.

    White worship is the worship of white people as representatives of the almighty West and all of its positive associations. It’s a relic of cultural colonialism.

    One could argue that confucianism has almost everything to do with this white worship. Why don’t black and brown people have such a crazy amount of white worship? If that’s the case, Asians need to abandon confucianism as a cultural norm and replace it with another tradition.

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    [–][deleted] 3 points 1 month ago
    Not surprisingly, Asians view Westerners as superior both culturally and physically.

    But this aspect has nothing to do with Confucinaism. Confucius probably didn’t even know that anyone other than Chinese people existed.

    I see what you’re getting at but the link is tenuous as best

    [–]ThailandasianmascthrowawayAA 2 points 1 month ago*
    Not saying I couldn’t be wrong, but I’m just looking for some answer as to why I’ve never really seen black and brown people both in the West and in countries where they are the majority have the same percentage of bizarre white worshippers that I’ve seen asians do.

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    [–]aZnmessenger 3 points 1 month ago*
    I do think Confucianism is a hindrance to meritocracy, but not sure if it has anything to do with white worship. I think a lot of it is naivety on behalf of Asian women, who only see western media portray white guys as compassionate, independent and romantic, but never paleo-conservative neo-colonialists with a proclivity to harbor irrational hatred (e.g. them-and-us mentality inspired contempt towards all Asian men for being potential rivals for Asian women).
    Edit: Of course there are the self-hating sadomasochistic sluts who like to be treated like slaves, but I believe that if we raise more awareness to Asian nations of what WMAF couples tend to be, the psychologically healthy portion will ditch their white worship behavior.

    • I must admit that I’ve never understood the obsession with masculinity. I’m a moderately masculine guy and certainly not effeminate, but I’ve never had a macho personality. I’m not sure why it matters. Most men I know aren’t extremely masculine.

      It really has nothing to do with race or whatever. I don’t think Asian guys look more effeminate. I see Asian guys on a daily basis and it never occurs to me to think about their masculinity. Why should it?

      People get weird ideas in their heads. I realize it has a lot to do with mainstream media and how people get portrayed. But why internalize all that crap? If tv and movies are fucking with your head, then stop watching it.

  10. Dysfunctional hierarchical social dynamic. The Asian elite gains a relatively comfortable lifestyle on the back of oppressed submissive common Asian man. They don’t feel the urge to counter white worship as they are satisfied still being above someone else. Actually, the elites might experience in a drop of life quality if their servile weak Asian man gets a backbone and stop being such good hard working employees and workers any more.

    Maybe the elites also ingested the white worship through their upbringing, which would be in a pretty similar condition as you described in your “international school”. It is an absolute tragedy that those white-worship cunts might end up as elites and rulers in Asia.

  11. [–]AngriestBird 3 points 5 months ago*
    People seem to universally rate mixed people as more attractive. That said, i have no doubt that repeated viewing of western faces in the media has an influence.

    I’m not quite sure if it has anything necessarily to do with Confucianist thought. My “very asian” relatives still want to preserve their culture. It’s really young people who want to fit in that might avoid “asianess”.

    That said, the tough aspect is that admittedly, the west is ahead. So that leaves asian men in the tough position of having to admit that, while simultaneously needing to have a healthy appreciation for their own asianess. I think the key is to look at the long game and realize that both the east (especially china emerging as a super superpower) and asian americans can eventually win.

    In the meantime we should remind ourselves that asian median income and academic achievement is already going strong vs whites(!), but we need a systematic plan to beat hollywood / entertainment industries, the bamboo ceiling, and close that interracial dating gender imbalance. We also need to fix the bad aspects of asian culture.

    If we play our cards right the admiration will be the other way around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TA2I4UPWaDc TA2I4UPWaDc

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    [–]Ir0nW00d[S] 4 points 5 months ago
    The point I’m making is that traditional Asian education aims to destroy whatever confidence you are born with. You are ignorant and stupid. You must listen to your teachers and parents. You must be obedient and submissive to authourity. You have nothing to be proud of until you achieve certain accomplishments (good grades, good job, make a lot of money). Until then, you shut up and listen meekly to your seniors. Submissiveness is a virtue

    Western education (at least the Western education I am familiar with) teaches you that you are born with dignity. As a human being you are automatically worthy of respect. Having pride in oneself is good. Your opinion is worthy of respect. You should stand up for yourself if challenged or attacked. You should defend your views. A little bit of cockiness is good. Confidence is a virtue.

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    [–]AngriestBird 3 points 5 months ago*
    I think both approaches are too extreme. The irony is that US education, aside from top universities, isn’t the best, and asians are dominating a lot of the schools. So even with a medium of the two approaches, asian americans can simultaneously be somewhat proud, but not be deluded.

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    [–]Ir0nW00d[S] 1 point 5 months ago*
    “I think both approaches are too extreme.”

    Maybe…but East Asian Confucian education tends to breed a far larger proportion of spineless wimps. Aggressive, masculine impulses are discouraged and often punished. While nerds are derided in the West, the soft-spoken, bespectacled bookworm who gets good grades and quietly obeys authourity is the ideal son.

    Weak submissive fathers raise weak submissive sons by passing on weak submissive values. This cycle has to be broken for Asian men to man the fuck up as a group.

    “Asian men” is a massive demographic. It’s almost impossible for a single individual to have a significant impact on the whole group. Asian men with knowledge of our position are only able to 1. improve themselves, 2. teach their sons well, and 3. offer some guidance to those willing to listen (most likely in their immediate circles)

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    [–]Worpzorp 1 point 5 months ago*
    I have no background in education in Asia, but coming from schools in the midwest, I agree with AngriestBird.

    “Your opinion is worthy of respect. You should stand up for yourself if challenged or attacked. You should defend your views”

    You’re right. This is what is supported by US schools from my experience, but like AngriestBird was saying, taken to the extreme this results in all these students who have opinions but 0 support for the actual opinion. With the worst part being, even when their opinions are shot down or openly disproven, there’s rarely any motivation to change their view. People take it as a personal insult if you challenge their knowledge or question their opinion and then just hold onto their opinion even tighter.

    I agree with you that for most Asians, and Asian Americans, this really isn’t our problem, but I’ve seen the results of “your opinion matters and you should be proud of it no matter what”, and I’m highly against this model of thinking. I’ve seen way too many stupid students who were absolutely sure their opinion was the golden standard to think this is the better model.

    • The more I listen to these kinds of views, the more they sound like earlier Jewish immigrants. They also were a minority that was seen as different, not particularly masculine and athletic. They often had demanding parents who didn’t let the kids have normal American childhoods. Accomplishment was the priority, especially academic accomplishment. American Jews were the original tiger parents in this country.

  12. Yep. I’m starting to notice this among young asian kids these days. Even though the amount of asian americans is increasing in the U.S., you will still have FOB asian immigrants coming into Asia to raise the next set of unfortunate children. It’s become consistent to a point that its a pattern: extremely shy asian kids who seem embarassed to want to socialize.

  13. It’s truly fucking disgusting. There’s none of the same insecurities that Asians have with other Asians. Not to say that it’s always better in China, there’s lots of shit there too, but it’s different.

    Fundamentally, Asian Americans have to deal with a completely destroyed identity, the poison whites inject about Asian sexuality (small dick, or tight pussies, etc), as well as a need to fundamentally reject all “Asian-ness”. I’m convinced that you need a certain level of self-hatred in order to be accepted by a “white group”.

    This is why identity issues, etc, are the major issue here. The history of races is about one race killing the men of another race, and then raping the women. The white race has not done this to the Asian race in the west, and so they play the “savior” card (although they did drop a bunch of agent orange in Vietnam, and fucked a lot of Thais). The truth is they have kept us alive to use us for our reproductive (women) and productive (men) uses, all the while feeding us poison in the form of what we should think, how we should feel, etc. The result is the first generation of immigrants are used for their productivity, and the second generation are raised to be court eunuchs and concubine sex toys. When these sex toys are old, they breed with the eunuchs and produce the third generation of eunuchs and concubines. This is just a cleverly concealed caste system.

    That being said, we definitely need to address these issues. With more Asian immigrants than ever now, we need to make sure the next generation do not have to deal with these issues. The more important way is to generate literature, and write about these issues, provide an easy point of access, etc.

    EDIT: Of course, when the cum sponges and computer eunuchs are old and bend and used up, and finally smartened up to the secret ways of the white savior, they start to question things.

    To which they get told to “go back to China” (which they’ve never been). Then the white man laughs and finds a new and younger generation of cum sponges and computer eunuchs, and the cycle repeats.

    • I wonder how popular HBD-type of thought is in different Asian countries. As in the West, I bet it is most popular in countries with the most wealth and power. As one commenter pointed out at that article, the science of every age is always used to rationalize the social order that most benefits certain people. For example, genetic determinism is probably more popular among the Chinese than among the Tibetans.

  14. Slanty eyes or epicanthic fold or epicanthal fold or epicanthus is a skin fold of the upper eyelid, covering the inner corner of the eye.

    European ethnic groups that tend to have epicanthus relatively frequently are Scandinavians, Poles, Germans, the Irish and British.

    Note: funny in its irony that whiteys make slanty eyes an Asian trait when Europeans have it too.

    • SMLCR:

      But why is that irritating that Asian American radical identities are borrowing from others? That sounds like some essentialist thinking on what cultural signifiers can and cannot be Asian. On this point I’m more pragmatic: we do both. Both borrow from past “Asian” radical experiences and non-Asian ones. They’re the same anyway as history is always impregnated with the present.


      Very good essay, if a bit dense and academic. Taking your definition and descriptions of jianghu at face value as accurate and true, I would agree 110% that Asian-Americans should actively push away from the individualist “replacement” identity politics toward a more radical and transformative police [policy?] of solidarity.

      However, I would point out that here its useful to look at this issue through a materialist/Marxist lens, and think about why it is that we might see a trend of Asian-Americans leaning toward the “replacement” pole of resistance, and bolster foolish talk about nationalism and “getting ‘their’ women”. I would argue a lot of this has to do with class; it should be no surprise that upwardly mobile people are going to primarily worry about things like being discriminated against for managerial/executive positions, how to navigate the yuppie dating scene, and generally problems of how to gain seats at the table of the ruling class–as opposed to working class/proletarian worries about the minimum wage, rent increases/gentrification, and communal gang violence.

      I made a comment somewhere in/r/asianamerican recently about this, but I think Asian-Americans (particularly East Asians, whose national history you seem to focus on) are more upwardly mobile (Marxists might say, “petty-bourgeoisie”) than the average American, courtesy of how immigration selects for more educated and higher-skilled workers. As such, working-class Asian-American concerns, which I would argue are inherently more around the “transformative” pole of radical tradition, are often drowned out in favor of “replacement”-style politics. The solution to the class biases in Asian-America might then be to forge better connections with radical and revolutionary working-class communities back in our regions of origin. I.e. Bangladeshi garment workers, dissent groups in Vietnam, radical workers’ collectives in China, trade unions in South Korea, communists in India and Pakistan, etc.

      I strongly believe that class is going to be the ultimate axis around which radical emancipatory movements best revolve around. Kids of different races who grow up in the ghetto have far more in common with one another than they do with businessmen and yuppies of the same race. You can bet your life that an Asian capitalists will not think twice about teaming up with White capitalists in order to exploit the Asian working class. I mean, what the fuck do people think is the actual racial nature of sweatshops across Asia?

  15. It’s a fair criticism of the piece to say that it neglects the female experience, so I’m glad you raised the question. There were radical women (obviously) all across Japan and China, who were involved in the fight against colonialism. I’m embarrassed that I don’t have any better cites for that; I should definitely make an effort to search out literature that focuses specifically on the female experience.
    I chose to write this piece for another sub, which is why the particular focus was on the male experience, and I copy-pasted it here at the request of /u/chinglishese.
    You are correct in assuming that I was trying to connect our historic struggles against colonialism (and elite economic extraction) in Asia with the daily struggles of those of us in the diaspora. I had several other motivations for writing the piece. First, I think that Asian Americans really don’t appreciate the long tradition of radical politics in Asia. A lot of times, diaspora communities erase radicalism because they are dominated by small business owners and a very specific type of professional. These people often (in my experience) try to universalize their actually narrow life experience. Anyone whose life differs from them is “not Xnese.” In response, many of their children who do choose a different set of politics often lack a narrative for their own political development, resulting in some awkwardness. I ‘ve seen that play out as white-washed (oh yeah, I went there) token Asians in radical spaces, or the Asian folks who appropriate the radical experiences of other diaspora groups — African Americans or Latinos. I find this particularly irritating given the actual breadth and depth of the Chinese/Japanese experiences alone, not to mention, Vietnam, South Asia, Philippines, etc.
    Second, I believe that the jianghu lens is instructive in that it provides an example of solidarity that predates the rise of industrial capitalism. A lot of what I am talking about becomes more apparent when we examine modern life in the USA — the emphasis on individual achievement, on the individual as a consumer of who acts alone, or perhaps only within a nuclear family structure. In contrast, solidarity is about working together with others tied together through bonds of mutual obligation, collectively in pursuit of wider goals. Now of course, you can look at any modern corporation as a type of collective action, which is true– yet, these are primarily bonds mediated via the market, via the buying and selling of wage labor. Contrast this with personal relationships defined by personal obligations and loyalty, where the relationship is not the result of a person working for a wage. Murray Bookchin claimed that industrial workers were the revolutionary class in the early 20th century, not because they were working in urban factories, but because during the early 20th century most factory workers were not far removed from the solidarity of traditional subsistence agriculture. Bookchin claimed that the conditions of subsistence agriculture created more egalitarian communities He goes into some detail about this in his studies of the anarchist/communist factions in the Spanish Civil War. This is contra the analysis of Karl Marx, who often regarded peasant farmers as a class of insular, conservative people who could not make revolution. Bookchin wrote that
    Above all, Spain was a land in which cultures were in dramatic transition between town and country, feudalism and capitalism—a nostalgic world that looked back to a past of aristocratic supremacy and forward to a future of plebeian egalitarianism that found its most radical form in a huge anarchosyndicalist movement. What made the Spanish working class so uniquely revolutionary, in my view, was its well-rooted ancestry in the countryside—in a relatively slow-paced, organic agrarian world that clashed sharply with the highly rationalized, mechanized industrial world of the cities. In the force-field of these two cultures, Spanish workers in the Mediterranean coastal cities retained an obduracy, a sense of moral tension, a feeling for preindustrial lifeways, and a commitment to community that cannot be conveyed to a generation immured in the received wisdom and prepackaged lifeways of a highly commodified, market-oriented era.
    I actually find Bookchin’s analysis pretty compelling, because it goes a long way to explaining what happened in China, Vietnam, Nepal and all the other countries in the world that have seen the rise of agrarian revolutions. It also explains the rise of the Kurdish revolutionaries of the PKK, but that’s another thread entirely.
    If we want to organize effectively for collective action under current conditions, it is actually a difficult task because modern American life is so atomized — most people are trained to think that their “self interest” is in staying in their lane and trying to fight all the other individuals. Again, collective action is considered perfectly fine if it is orchestrated by people who are paying salaries — there was a lawsuit last year about salary fixing in Silicon Valley among the biggest tech firms, which is surely an example of collective action and not the “Darwinian” fight that so many people idealize. This is why the whole PUA community is so misguided, because actually, at the highest wealth level of society there is tremendous collective action — and those who act like there isn’t, are actually admitting in public that they don’t have an accurate cognitive model of the way that the most powerful people have secured and continue to secure their position(s). It’s my hope that by looking at historical traditions of solidarity, that we can in some way draw useful lessons in what solidarity can look like. In addition, these traditions are not quite dead yet, given, as I said, the ongoing popularity of stories and films that draw on themes of heroic bloodshed, ties of personal loyalty and so on.
    Clearly, women should be able to act with agency and solidarity. It is a pretty terrible thing that for many generations in China and Japan women were formally relegated to a second class position in society. That’s wrong. I’m trying really hard as I write this right now to think about how to best address the question of “where do women fit into this narrative.” Maybe the best way to address it is to write a little bit about my own personal experiences.
    In my own life, I have wrestled with how to best address the legacy of misogyny that my Confucian ancestors bequeathed on me. In my early 20s I had a pretty tight knit group of male friends, and for us, the heroic bloodshed films and the early 20th century Asian revolutionaries were touchstones. Together we went to school, lived as roommates, fought, played at activism, chased women and had a pretty good time. But at the same time, there was a spectrum of misogynistic behavior, and ultimately it culminated in one of my friends turning out to be a terrible human being , because, as he told me, he saw women as disposable objects and acted accordingly. I was really shaken by that experience, and afterwards, I tried (in a very stumbling way) to treat my female friends with the same sense of mutuality that came so easily to me among men. And it really wasn’t until 3 or 4 years ago that I really engaged with radical feminists, discussions of rape culture, pervasive misogyny etc. I often find the critiques compelling, especially given my personal experiences.
    It is probably way too simplistic to simply say “okay everyone, treat each other the way that a certain group of cis-het E. Asian men treated each other.” It is too simple to say that, because it does not address questions of power that invariably occur when sexual attraction enters the picture. That’s probably an artless way of saying it, but after trying and failing to come up with something better for the last 20 minutes, that’s the best I can do. I don’t really have a good historical example of equitable gender relations in E. Asian revolutionary movements, and I have to say, this feels like something that we will have to construct for our own generation. As a cis-het male, I’m not sure that that I’m in a position to do that, actually. All I can do is offer some historical examples of solidarity, and maybe we can build on those in a way that helps establish more equitable gender relations?
    A while back I heard a talk by Julie A. Nelson, a feminist economist based at UMass Boston. She put up some slides with adjectives classed into “male” and “female.” I seem to remember that logic was coded as male, emotion was coded as female, among others. In her talk, Nelson discussed the way that some feminists in the 70s and 80s tried to invert the binary– if society had previously classed “male” adjectives as good and “female” adjectives as bad, the task was to make “female” adjectives good and “male” adjectives bad. Nelson said very clearly that she departed from that schema; she stated that everyone should have access to both sides of the binary– i.e. both men and women should be able to be logical and emotional.
    Extending Nelson’s argument, if the jianghu world is about collective agency in pursuit of heterodox politics and historically coded as male, then we should dissolve the binary and instead see this as something accessible to all.

  16. And that is precisely why I wrote the 15 paragraphs of East Asian history; because Asian American men need to be able to see themselves as political actors, and the best way to do that is to provide a narrative wherein people who look like us acted in politically conscious ways. Those of us in the diaspora are living in societies that attack everyone’s agency, and especially that of Asian men. Therefore, I believe that people should be able to see counter-hegemonic examples that speak to their own experiences and cultural background. As an aside, I know that there are examples of this from across Asia, I just don’t know the history as well for South and SE Asia.
    One of the things that I find really irritating about the current Asian American political “scene” is the way that it flees conflict, aggression and dynamism, in favor of anodyne, denatured personalities.
    This is why a lot of Asian American men who have the strongest interest in fighting the power choose not to engage with the API “community” — because their contribution is not welcome. Actually, often, agency itself isn’t welcome– I have seen Asian American women with forceful personalities fired from nonprofit orgs that like to trumpet their “radical” pedigree. Why is this happening? It’s because professional class success in the US depends on the performance of an anesthetized, detached, “process driven” personality that is really nothing more than the performance of obedience. About 15 years ago there was a strong push to develop “more professional” nonprofit organizations, by bringing in people with MBAs or MPAs. This is the result — the mirroring of corporate hierarchy within the nonprofit, so-called “activist” sector. This is changing, somewhat, with the rise of the #AsiansForBlackLives folks, and it’s a welcome change. I don’t think it’s happening fast enough though.
    but over in /r/am and /r/ab, it’s basically all dudes bragging about lifting and fitting heteronormative white ideals of masculinity. their identities are fixated on these ideals. for them, it’s their religion and god know they’re dogmatic as shit about it. I dunno if jianghu can replace the pervasive machismo that’s spewed out by all levels of US society
    I agree that fixating on heteronormative white ideals of masculinity is a problem. But I see an opposite problem in activist circles, which is to say, something very much like the slave morality that Nietzsche mentions in his Genealogy of Morals (which I read today, thanks to /u/SMLCR). That is, there is an effort to say that if physical strength and confrontation are something that the dominant class in society considers “good,” then those on the left must consider it “evil.”
    I think that’s bullshit. The right is extremely dangerous to people of color — look at Charleston. If we actually seek to confront them then people are going to have to prepare themselves, physically and mentally for that contest. I have been in radical spaces where people literally could not understand the difference between a discourse of power and a discourse of morality, and seen people suffer the consequences of that misunderstanding.
    Not everyone has the ability to fight that fight, and that’s okay too– there are many ways to participate in the struggle. And in some sense, I’m not even asking for people to necessarily take on the physical fight; just that they have to understand the necessity of it, and not try to avoid it by rendering it “morally wrong” and therefore, suspect.
    Jianghu shouldn’t replace western misogyny (I’m not going to use the term “machismo” because I’m told it has certain connotations in Latino culture that I don’t think map onto the white US culture, and since I don’t understand it well, I’m not going to use it in a way that might be inadvertently racist) — rather, I’m interested in seeing a broader discussion of what solidarity looks like for everyone, no matter their gender or sexuality. The traditional conception of jianghu can be really misogynistic — Water Margin has some awful parts– yet, I think that there are things about the tradition that are worth examining.
    so the question for me becomes how do you effectively align the views of all of these people when they are barely aware of the true nature of society? like, these are university educated people with the critical tools through which they can perceive and understand the rules and nature of a corporate ladder. they see matrices of oppression and yet they firmly choose to deny the systemic nature of it. either that or they superficially acquiesce to it without really giving it any thought except to reappropriate it into a narrative of persecution and entitlement
    Well the first step is to engage with people and discuss a critical analysis with them in a respectful way. This means simultaneously condemning homophobia/misogyny while understanding its origin, and separating those who are able to get it from those who, for whatever reason, can’t — or won’t, because of their class interests or psychological issues.
    I think it may be difficult for Asian women (cis or trans) to do that with cis-hetero Asian men, and I think that asking Asian women to perform that emotional labor is basically unacceptable, given the history. Therefore, it has to be done by cis-hetero Asian men.
    There is also the issue of understanding political economy — many young, Asian American male professionals are in STEM or business, and any discussion with them will necessarily encounter all of the neoliberal catechisms that are taught in b-school and are uncritically propagated in engineering, computer science particularly. Unfortunately, Asian American Studies (which produces so many activists) is like any other field of cultural studies– it is bereft of the tools one would need to understand the mechanics of modern capitalism. The sociology of capitalism is mostly about moral judgments, i.e. “this social relationship is hurtful.” The comeback to that will be “yes, but it has to be that way because otherwise everyone starves.”
    We have to be able to address the kind of question that an engineer will ask, which is, how will you keep the lights on in your new order? It’ll be a pretty fucking blue Monday for any organizer who can’t answer that question.
    The fliipside is that if one does have access to the tools and data with which to critique modern capitalist economies, then one can very easily attack neoliberal orthodoxy. I should probably post about that sometime.

  17. I noticed a marked decline in the number of highly successful East Asians in the U.S. around the late 1990s/early 2000s. I believe this period coincided with the Asian financial crisis. It also was when there was a number of xenophobic scandals (see John Huang, Loral, Al Gore visiting Buddhist temples, the Cox Report, Wen Ho Lee, etc.)

    Many of you youngsters probably have no idea how much America was in awe/fear of certain aspects of East Asia prior to this disastrous period. Ever heard of the phrase “Japan lost the war but won the peace”? In retrospect, the West used conservative East Asia to win the Cold War (‘see? Import substitution is bad! Open markets! Tear down this wall!’) and then dropped them like a hot iron.

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    [–]SteelersRock 2 points an hour ago
    Indians do well everywhere they go. In Canada and the UK, they are in good. Also, Indians in Malaysia also do a lot of white collar professional jobs. On average, Indians in the US outdo these other groups. These are just general trends, not absolutes.

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    [–]ap0lly0n 7 points 7 hours ago*
    In my opinion, I think it is because of two factors 1. Indians are Caucasian. Light skinned Indians pass for white. 2. They don’t have the history of hundreds of years of racism, hate, intolerance, and marginalization here that East Asians have suffered. While they did/do suffer from such, it is nowhere near comparable. The US has warred with many East Asian nations, China, Japan, Vietnam, Korea, etc., but no South Asian nations. So you don’t get generations of war propaganda as well as immigration and labor politicking. Look at the situation of Indians in the UK, and you get quite a different situation.

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    [–]eehello 2 points 6 hours ago
    How is the situation of Indians in UK

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    [–]garlicextract 2 points an hour ago
    In my opinion, I think it is because of two factors 1. Indians are Caucasian.

    No they aren’t lmao. That’s some bullshit that the British made up because when they came to India they were astounded by how relatively advanced the civilization and culture were, so they concluded that Indians must have descended from Caucasians, as only the Great White Man was capable of creating anything noteworthy.

    This is AsianMasculinity, and that’s a very toxic white supremacist concept you’re suggesting. And quite frankly offensive to Indians.

    edit: from a Quora answer on the suject

    “Caucasian” is a classification invented by a German historian named Christoph Meiners. He attempted to create a taxonomy for humans and believed the different “races” had different origins.

    He decide that “Caucasians” must have originated from the Caucasus mountains since the people there were beautiful and nearly perfect in his view His theories are complete crap and have no scientific basis. There is no such thing as Caucasian as he describes it. We use it today to mean “white” but there isn’t a scientific definition of “white”. I think Meiners’s taxonomy is racist (based on what we know today) and we should stop using them.

    Seriously it’s al total bullshit when it comes to India

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    [–]ap0lly0n 1 point an hour ago

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    [–]thetemples 2 points 3 hours ago
    Arabs and Pakistani are more Caucasian looking than Indians, why aren’t they more successful?

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    [–]Indiabatistaker[S] 1 point 2 hours ago
    Steve Jobs was technically an Arab American. His biological father was Syrian.

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    [–]thetemples 3 points 2 hours ago
    That’s just 1 example and Steve Jobs was only half Arab.

    permalinksaveparentgive gold

    • Then again, many people noticed a marked decline in the number of highly successful minorities in general in the U.S. around the late 1990s/early 2000s. Minority groups were hit hard economically and the youngest generations were hit the hardest, long before it became apparent to most whites in 2008. Minorities have always been the canary in the coalmine.

  18. I relate to this, but I dislike the use of “gift vs disorder” because it assigns unneeded value judgment.

    Reducing my sensitivity has helped my mental health in that my sensitivity amplified my mental baggage. Though I’m not sure the problem is sensitivity as much as my baggage. I think my goal is to shed the baggage rather than shed the thig that amplifies it.


    • It resonates with both my experience and my knowledge. It brings to mind the Moral Flynn Effect. Also, it correlates to the liberalism angle. Liberals tend to be more hyper-aware of their environments, as has been shown by studies of eye-tracking.

      Some commenters noted that the causation could go in either direction. My cognitive ability developed before my social awareness. I wasn’t a particularly sensitive child. It was my brain operating abnormally that eventually caused me to not fit in and so develop what now seems like social anxiety.

      The only thing that has worked for me is creating a stable social environment. I don’t like too much change. Predictable daily experience can be a good thing.

  19. Also I’m either susceptible, impressionable, and gullible, or thin boundaried. Not being rigid has ruined y mental health, because I tend to “veer” before I judge which really just results in me being a puppet sponge internalizing everything I see. Conflict, cognitive dissonance. I think I told you how I iternalized NR shit, even white nationalist shit, at the same time internalizing social justice shit. It really really really fucked with my head.

    I think many teachers thought I was weird and cognitive dissonance and such, but it was all real to me and understandable to my own mind, you know? I didn’t just have cognitive dissonance but I intellectualized it too. My mind was a constant battlefield.

    The way I see it, depressing things no longer depress me if I do not have the thing iternalized. For rxample, now I can look at stuff in racism towards Asians, and not feel personally depressed because I’ve shed some of my internalization of the idea of Asians being inferior to whites. Now it’s more when I see asian oppression, I don’t feel depressed because I no longer feel as much that Asians are inferior, and therefore “deserve” it or something. NR, hdd, whitevnationalism, etc, upset me part because I had internalized them as being right to a degree, if u know what I mean.

    • It is interesting how this kind of stuff plays out in people’s lives.

      Ernest Hartmann developed the model of boundary types. He added the caveat that people have multiple boundaries, in their minds and in their lives. Categorizing people as types is to speak of general patterns.

      I don’t know how common your experience is, but internalization of some sort does seem to go along with thin boundaries. In some ways, it isn’t really internalization because the thin boundary experience disallows a clear demarcation between internal and external.

      My own experience is different than yours. I have thin boundaries, but in a different kind of way. Part of that would be social context. Outside conditions determine what and how we incorporate the world around us into our identities.

      Your last observation makes sense to me. There is a connection between depression and ‘internalization’. We aren’t merely stuck a particular way. Everyone has boundaries, even thin boundary types, and those boundaries shift and develop over one’s lifetime.

    • American spent so many centuries not dealing with its problems. It’s only the past decades that these old issues have been forced to the service. We Americans don’t how to deal with it all.

      I haven’t finished reading the article yet. But I think it’s a lot more complex than the article presents. One recent study found that people, when told to be politically correct, were more creative in their problem-solving. Political correctness allowed them to collaborate more effectively.

      Obviously, the centuries of the opposite of political correctness were a failure.

  20. You know that South Korea, Taiwan, and Singapore were all one party dictatorships during the time that they transitioned from a developing economy to a developed one (Singapore is still one, kind of), right? And Japan was basically ruled by one party (the LDP) for 40 years. But of course, back when South Korea and Taiwan were being ruled by military dictatorships that were crushing student protests and executing “rebels”, they were both seen by the United States as being important obstacles to the spread of Communism and their actions weren’t really covered by US media.

    By the way, there’s a great amount of dissent in the Chinese public, but you never hear about it in the US since it’s rarely covered by the media here. A long time ago, when I visited family in Hangzhou for the first time in more than a decade, there were articles in the city’s most popular newspaper lambasting government officials for mismanaging real estate development around the city’s riverbank. Were the editors of that paper dragged out of their homes in the middle of the night, kicking and screaming? Was the newspaper shut down by the government? No, nothing happened except the head official in charge of Hangzhou got a reprimand from higher ups in Beijing and real estate development policy was altered in Hangzhou. A relatively small event, but an important one that opened my eyes to the fact that China wasn’t the way it’s portrayed in the West.

    Here’s one important thing you have to know; Chinese people are FAR more cynical about their government than their western counterparts. Because of that, they’re always questioning and demanding more from their government, which has to respond. The Chinese government has to be responsive to their population’s needs because their system doesn’t have any pressure valves in the form of an election. It’s not like here in the US where we bitch and moan about certain issues, go vote in the elections and go back to bitching and moaning about the same issues. In China, if the government doesn’t solve problems or show that it can solve problems, then the people get impatient and there’s unrest.

    • I’ve seen some of that reporting of China over the years. It’s mostly in the alternative media. I’m sure most Americans don’t ever hear about Chinese citizens criticizing their government and protesting. I don’t hear much of it myself, but I’m glad to know it is happening. It is one of the failures of our (faux) democracy that it so easily allows for manipulation and suppression.

      • I haven’t been following news closely for a while now.

        I used to pay attention to a ton of alternative media. I’m not sure what stands out to me as above average. I used to like shows such as that of Amy Goodman and Thom Hartmann. I also used to rely on social media, as I was connected with other people who were well informed.

        These days, I’m more likely to follow bloggers with alternative views, from academics like Corey Robin to more radical types such as Caleb Gee (United States Hypocrisy). I sometimes check out such sources as ZCommunications or Common Dreams.

        I’ve never been overly systematic about any of my media consumption. I tend to be eclectic. I often rely more on doing specific searches and seeing what comes up. When I’m curious enough, I’ll look through hundreds of results.

  21. The umbrella movement wore out its welcome in the same way I saw the Occupy movement lose their momentum in NYC. The Chinese government didn’t move troops in to crush the protests or start executing its leaders. It let the movement cannibalize itself with stupid behavior that I outlined before.

    They’re choosing the candidates that run in the elections, but that’s following the handover agreement they signed with Great Britain. Maybe not in the spirit of the treaty, but in word of the treaty its legal. This is where I’ll get a little frustrated with you guys; if you HK’ers cared about your precious democracy so much, you should’ve fought for a better arrangement back when you were under British control, which would have set legal precedent before the handover that China needed to abide by. Instead for most of Hong Kong history, you guys willingly bent over and got fucked in the ass by the British who literally legally deemed Chinese to be 3rd class citizens in their own city. Not even 2nd class citizens which was reserved for the Indians and Gurkhans that served the British. It’s very telling that while the British system was far more unequal with nearly all the positions of powers reserved for whites, entire sections of the city barring the Chinese from entering it unless they were a servant, and the institutions of influence like country clubs and elite business organizations favoring whites, you HK’ers didn’t complain and worked like the obedient servants to make your white overlords richer. But once the Chinese came in and actually starting putting Asians into a position of power, but maybe not in the way you want, wow, out comes the protests and allegations of oppression. Come on, we’re supposed to not believe HK has a serious white worshiping complex?

    You know why Macau is not going through this shit even though they were a colony as well? Because that’s a city which has actual pride in being Asian and not being a subservient white worshiping Uncle Tom like Hong Kong. Bruce Lee might be one of the greatest Hong Kong’ers of all time and a personal hero of mine, but he’d be ashamed of this mentality from HK youth.

    I’m going to sleep now. You need to learn a lot more about the world before people can start taking you seriously, kid.

  22. You could do with reading some world history and politics. And I’m not trying to be condescending here, but I think you’re forming opinions without a good knowledge base on the subject (really basic stuff like Marx being German.)

    Anyway, the history of Chinese Communism is one of defiance and independence compared to just about all of the other Communist states in the world at the time. When the Communists won the civil war in China, Stalin attempted to mold China into a satellite state the same way he controlled Eastern Europe, but Mao resisted Stalin and his successor, Khrushchev, causing a schism in which the Communist world was split between essentially China vs. the Soviets. For all the bad economic planning and social policy that Mao had, one mark in his favor is that he was seen as the guy giving China its strength back after over a century of outside powers bullying it. Everything from fighting a US led UN coalition to a standstill in Korea to being one of only two countries in the world willing to take a military stand against the Soviets and fighting multiple border conflicts with them. Communism in China was seen as a victory for the Chinese against outsiders wanting to control Chinese affairs again. Of course nowadays, Chinese Communism really stands for Capitalism with Chinese characteristics thanks to the policy changes of Deng Xiaoping, but that’s another story altogether.

  23. You have to understand the historical context instead of looking at the modern day situation and going, “well that sucked.” The Korean war had pushed its way to the Chinese-North Korean border with the North Korean army trapped between the US led UN army and the Yalu river, all but defeated. General MacArthur could have stopped his advance, set up defensive lines and negotiated for peace which the North Koreans would’ve been forced to accept.

    Instead, he decided to do some really stupid dick waving and talked about invading China and possibly even using nukes there to get the Communists out. Naturally, the possibility of China being invaded by a foreign power again less than 5 years after the Japanese were finally defeated, was unacceptable and China joined the conflict on the side of the North Koreans and pushed the US-UN force to the 38th Parallel. China didn’t even want to join the conflict in the first place since they saw it as a Soviet led war (the Kim family was put in power by the Soviets originally), but MacArthur forced their hand. If General MacArthur had never exceeded the bounds of his authority (he was later fired by Truman for this very same reason), there’s a good chance North Korea as we know it today would have never existed.

  24. If you can’t tell the difference between Soviet era central planning where Party officials determined both inputs and outputs of the economy and current China where they mostly let market prices determine those things, you need to read more about economics. Try this one about the shortfalls of the Soviet system written by Soviet economists towards the end of the USSR. There’s no similarity between that system and the current Chinese hybrid capitalist with some state intervention system

    As for the ghost cities, it’s sensationalized stories that started appearing around the same time that this policy was enstated If you want to move a population that’s almost the size of the United States from the rural countryside to cities in less than 15 years, you better have those cities ready by the time they start moving in unless you want millions to live in tent cities and squalor. There has been a real estate slowdown in the major cities, but that’s a pretty natural part of a country’s economic cycle.

    The American real estate bubble was a whole different game from China’s real estate bubble, which was why the effects trickled down to the entire economy. Most importantly, China’s residential real estate market is not being financed by debt, unlike the US homes which were largely bought with mortgages and loans.

    If you take finance classes, especially valuation, you’ll learn that debt has an amplification effect on everything. It makes the good times seem better, the bad time worse. For example, I see that the stock market is booming at about 20% growth a year, so I take out a $100,000 loan at 5% interest and put it into an index fund (for simplicity’s sake, let’s assume there are no costs or upkeep to this transaction.) Should the good times continue, in a year, I can sell my position, pay back the loan with interest, and pocket essentially a free $15,000 without having to spend any of my own money. However, if the market were to crash and fall 20%, I’d be out $20,000+$5,000, and if I can’t pay it back, the bank will be coming after my assets. The bad outcome is a far worse scenario than if I had just used my existing assets to buy the index fund instead.

    That’s how a real estate crash brought down the entire US economy. The growth was largely financed by debt, which was then packaged into financial instruments by banks and sold to everyone from institutional investors to small time traders. So when the money stopped coming in from those products, it froze up liquidity in the whole market, and fucked everyone up. China’s residential real estate market being financed by people’s savings instead of debt is much more compartmentalized. And another thing to note is that there are still hundreds of millions of people to China’s west that are going to move out of poverty in the next two decades, which means the market for houses and apartments is growing rapidly. Price probably won’t shoot up again like they did in 2010, but I doubt that there’ll be a giant crash since there’s still a waiting list of millions looking to buy into real estate if they have the chance.

  25. Like everything about China, it’s more complicated than one single answer. Some of it is speculators setting up shop and hoping that an area will take off due to favorable conditions. Ordos, the poster child for ghost cities is a good example of it and it’s slowly paying off now that the city is at 50% capacity and growing due to a coal mine boom. Most of it is the government giving loans to real estate developers to build up marginal areas of the country that otherwise wouldn’t be otherwise, in preparation for a move towards urbanization.

    Even counting all the illegal migrants in cities, China is only at around 60% urbanization rate. I don’t think there’s a developed country in the world with an urbanization rate under 80% which is the figure China wants to reach since it’ll be economically viable to provide government services like universal healthcare that way. The Eastern shore of China is already very densely populated and developed so for this reform to be affordable, these city developments have to be in more marginal places where few people live. It’ll take decades for the new cities to fill up since it isn’t like the old days of China under Mao where the government could pull up in trucks and order everyone to pack up and move. Nowadays, they’ll have to gradually negotiate with hundreds of millions of rural farmers for their land and give them incentives to move into these new cities.

  26. That’s the point. Small spread out farms (which is what China has) are inefficient in terms of crop yields compared to large consolidated plots of land that makes it economically viable to purchase large farm machinery to work. If there’s enough capital invested in farming, a very small population is needed to work the land. Something like 1% of the US population works in farming, but that’s enough to feed this country 5 times over.

    There’s no honor in being a farmer in China’s poorest, undeveloped areas. You have to work the land with little more than simple tools, live in huts that lack insulation during the winter, might not have access to stable electricity, phone service, or the internet, and you’re always broke since you only have a small plot of land. And if you have children in those areas, good luck getting them to the closest school 40 miles away when your family can’t afford a car. Most young people from those areas, if they are able, are already fleeing to the cities in order to achieve a better life, might as well enable the rest of them. It’s the reason why millions of these farmers are taking government offers to move to the city and millions will continue to do so in the upcoming years. All the evidence we have shows you literally can’t be a developed country without an urbanization rate of at least 75%. Unless you want China to stay a developing country for it’s entire existence, they have to make this transition and the government would rather it come sooner than later.

    See, this is what I mean; you always try to find the negative in anything the Chinese government does. Will this plan work like they intended? Maybe, it’s still too early to tell, but this could very well be the most effective Asian poverty alleviation program of the 21st century with another 200+ million people lifted out of a life of poverty. Personally, I’m glad they’re at least putting forward a viable, but ambitious plan instead of sitting back and twiddling their thumbs.

  27. i guess i’m looking at it from an american perspective. because here in america the policies are usually to get people out of the cities and into a home in the suburbs (the “american dream” i guess). it’s part of the reason why we had a real estate crisis in the first place. anyways, my point is, even in developed urban areas in the west, we still have plenty of inner city poverty, to the point where we have things like urban decay, urban flight, white flight, and i guess the opposite, gentrification. this is why i don’t necessarily see rapid urbanization as the solution to poverty. but then again, the collectivist nature of asians is very different from the “independent” nature of americans, so asians may be better suited for urban life. but like you said, it may be too early to tell. what do you think?

    permalinkembedsaveparentgive gold
    [–]PokesHoleInCondoms 2 points 6 months ago
    That’s your issue right there. You can’t look at Chinese events through the American perspective because it’s a completely different country with its own circumstances. What’s good for one country is not necessarily good for another.

    The United States had the “benefit” of the Great Depression and World War II to drive urbanization as millions of farmers left their family plots to look for work in the city and millions of soldiers got subsidized housing by the government in cities or newly built suburbs after the war. It’d be inefficient for China to wait for events like that to drive urbanization, so it took the initiative.

    • I have no idea what urbanization would mean for China. In the short term, I doubt anything that the Chinese government does will likely benefit poor Chinese (any more than anything that the US government does will likely benefit poor Americans).

      Countries like the US experienced mass urbanization during a favorable moment in history. It’s not just differences between countries, but also differences across time. All of the world is hitting environmental constraints that could have dire consequences.

      Plus, no industrialized country has ever dealt with such a massive rural population as China still has. I’m not sure anyone can predict what that will lead to.

  28. Well, yellow peril in media (which strictly lands on mainland China right now, because we are the biggest threat to the west) + the tendency of Asians to profess hate for each other than to profess love (especially around white people, which snowballs into real feelings), is why there exists such a negative feeling towards mainlanders. We are literally the enemy of the entire anglo-media. Look at how much they ragged on China giving “too little” to the Phillipino typhoon disaster. Have you EVER seen that much bashing of a country over “not donating enough”? Literally this small thing was covered for days. My theory is that it is part of the US policy to destroy Asian relations. They do have a certain degree of influence over the direction of their own media.

    honestly, i don’t really see it as asians vs whites. i see it as communist mainland asians vs freedom/democracy asians (something like ASEAN + japan, korea, and hong kong)

    But the thing is, without the shit-stirring stick that is the US foreign policy, there would never be this bad of a relation between Asian countries. There is absolutely ZERO incentive for us to fight over ideology invented by white people. We trade and interact just fine. The territorial issues are minor incidents that get blown up. Seriously, US is literally killing people in foreign countries, Israel is literally occupying new territories every single day, but China gets more hate for putting up a hard stance on some island that nobody lives on, and there is no blood spilled over this. You get how messed up it is (the power of anglo-media) to have Asians all hating each other to the current degree based on some incident like this.

    thing is, filipinos are usually pro-democracy because of our relationship with the US

    Seriously, I see this relationship as extremely unhealthy neo-colonalism. US drives up some fear against China, and they get to set their military base in Asia, fucking/raping more Filipino girls, all the while Filipino are somehow supposed to grateful of being defended against an imaginary threat. And Filipino media and society in general basically put white American males on a pedestal, don’t you agree? Also, don’t you think Filipinos are being treated as 2nd class citizens in their own country, 100s of things like this? And these are the only incident being reported.

    most of the filipinos in hk are usually domestic workers (maids) so i understand why they would look down on us.

    Dude, why do filipinos accept such a bad treatment? Seriously, why aren’t you saying “why are they looking down on us in the first place” or “you shouldn’t disrespect domestic servants”? There is a famous case, not Filipino, but SEA, Erwiana Sulistyaningsih. Also, you can go on wiki page here to read all about it. And if you do a google search just on filipino domestic workers in hong kong and look at the first few results.

    Also, there is no point for me to get you to hate HKers. My best wish is for Asians to stop hating each other and then sucking white westerner’s dick to get them on their side. It is the most servile pathetic thing I have ever seen.

  29. Going through the list. 1) Japan and Philippines is for sure anti-China right now to the point of bringing the USA to have a proxy war which is dangerous. 2) Vietnam is also anti-China but aren’t seeking to start a war. 3) South Korea is neutral, there are some who are anti-China and those who are pro-China, but isn’t going to start or escalate conflict. 4) India is anti-China because it is seen as a rival, also they discriminate against Tibeto-Burmese people from Northeast India 7 states such as Sikkim, Assam, Tripura, Manipur. They are rivals but not enemies. Also China aids Pakistan, so that is another reasion. 5) Taiwan and Hong Kong are anti-China politically but they are still chinese people who want to be different. They will be brought back through economics. 6) Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia isn’t really Anti-China but the growing of China still affects them.

    Notice how these countries are next to or near China. Where are all the countries criticizing the USA, they were squashed. Mexico, Guatamala, Honduras, Belize, Cuba, El Salvador, Chile, Venzuela, Colombia, Panama are all banana republics.

    • It is sad that there had to be a debate about whether or not a “more equitable and innovative society” would be a good thing. The only other choice is an unfair, unequal, and stagnant society.

      The most reactionary of theocrats and paleo-conservatives might want that, but the average person on the right wouldn’t be happy with such a society. Heck, I doubt even reactionaries really want it either.

      They are just spouting bullshit over the internet from the comfort and safety of mostly middle class lives. It’s just fantasizing, similar to the person who plays an elf in a role-playing game.

    • Some people are attention whores. It’s as simple as that. But in some cases there might be some genuine mental instability. Such a person could be so thin boundaried that they have no independent self-identity. That would cause them to be swayed by every single group they come into contact with. A cult leader would love to get a hold of that kind of person.

  30. Yes. One of the last hurdles for me is letting go of the idea that my people are not-as-good as whites because the modern world and birth of modern technology and the world as we know it was from the white west. We have a 5000 year culture but our inventions are primitive and old, the cool modern shit like airplanes is from the west.

    The “Asians are smart but uncreative drones” thing basically.


  31. Middle school sucked balls. And it wasn’t bullying. Adolescence was when my mums depression because noticeable for me, that I’ve only recently worked through my mummy issues, and was also when I developed identity issues not through bullying or hitting in but because I was always serious and curious, and I first discovered modern racism, nationalist race BS, and my mum hammering into me how whites were better

    “[–]abcccel 4 points 14 hours ago*
    “My son will have the same issues a lot of the posters here do if thats the case. He looks very asian”
    Ms. I’m a full blooded AM so you can take my advice with a grain of salt.East Asians ( especially asian males) are the most bullied ethnicity in school.
    My Asian father taught me to be the typical Asian conformist, keep your head down / ignore /endure racism. As a result I’ve grown up with shit tier self esteem. Why do African Americans on avg have the lowest economic status, highest crime rates while on avg have the highest self esteem?
    Why aren’t more people openly racist to blacks in school ? Because people know that if they call a black person a “nigger” the black will physically/verbally make him pay for it. When the racist calls a black person the N word and the black person fucks up the racist, he defends his “self esteem”.
    This is 180 the opposite of Asian values. if I had a son with asian looking features I’d enroll him in a street oriented self defense school or do some “dad” time training with some focus mitts and tell him starting at age 6yo develop healthy masculine mental habits:
    “Kid , this is a tribal ,dog eat dog world , and every time some racist verbally /physically bullies you, if you don’t stand up and verbally /physically rip his face off a little part of your soul dies.
    If you don’t even try to defend your self esteem and bloody his nose by the time you past your formative teenage years you will be broken or stunted mentally.
    Son,even if the racist beats you up at least you will mentally make peace with the fact that you stood up for yourself and protect your self esteem.
    “New Research: Confronting Racism Boosts Self-Esteem ”
    “A new study of Filipino Americans by researchers at San Francisco State University demonstrates that confronting racism helps boost self-esteem for some
    …99 percent of participants had experienced at least one incident of everyday racism in the last year. The study focused on “everyday racism” — subtle, commonplace forms of discrimination, such as being ignored, ridiculed or treated differently. In an interview, lead researcher Alvarez explained:
    “These are incidents that may seem innocent and small, but cumulatively they can have a powerful impact on an individual’s mental health. Trying to ignore these insidious incidents could become taxing and debilitating over time, chipping away at a person’s spirit.”
    For men in the study, dealing with racism in an active way, such as reporting incidents to authorities or challenging the perpetrator, was associated with decreased distress and increased self esteem…”
    ” when i tell him im worried about the racism my child may experience”
    trdl teaching your son to verbally /physically protect himself from covert/ overt microaggressions /racist incidents will do more for your son’s self esteem than any DVD about Korean culture.
    Hispanics have higher esteem on avg than Asians. Racists are scared of getting hurt if they are racist against Hispanics.
    Blacks have higher self esteem on avg than Asians. Racists are scared of getting killed if they are racist against blacks.
    Asians have the lowest self esteem on avg in US but are the most “cultured” and “civilized”. Racists don’t care about saying racist shit to asians.
    Psychologists say the middle school years are THE formative milestone in a child’s mental development. I guarantee you if you don’t train your son to verbally /physically bloody the nose of any primary/middle school bully who calls him “gook” ( even if he loses the fight), your son will grow up self hating and mentally damaged.”

  32. I’m not “alpha” either. I’m naturally sensitive and social anxiety paired with people pleasing and not wanting to hurt others. My counselor eve thought I was mildly autistic because I don’t look people in the eye much. I’m just Social anxiety, but it’s tough because my social anxiety isn’t obvious at all. These days people are even surprised if I say I’m shy. But I am. It expresses itself pretty subtley though, you know?

    I also never learned to be assertive. I find it helps my self esteem when I do stand up for myself though. I’ve gotten better with age. I’m naturally a hothead, but I wimper inside when someone reacts negatively because again, I’m a people pleaser

    • I don’t tend to look people in the eyes. I am highly sensitive to direct eye contact. When I fully look at someone, it is easy for me to intuitively and imaginatively slip into someone’s mind. I automatically go below the surface, which gets exacerbated by seeing people’s eyes. It irritates me just to have someone look closely at me. My sense of self feels easily pierced.

  33. Lmao

    The concern isn’t that he’s arguing that we could just get rid of the lower classes. His problem is this:

    We’re fracturing. Permanent, inescapable underclasses are developing. Members of this underclass will be hopelessly incapable of moving up in society. It’s happening globally, too. It means that instead of competing with other Americans, the lower classes are now abandoned b the upper classes to dependence, welfare and despondency. And it’s not just class. Old-style marxist analysis won’t help.

    They will literally be less bright, less capable of good decisions, less capable generally. They will sink to the bottom and stay there.

    That this has always been true is now irrelevant. The economies pre-info age were more democratic, in the sense that IQ made some but not a great deal of difference. Now, to get the real money, a stratification along IQ lines is emerging and you need to be in the upper end.

    And his contention, and what is the absolute common opinion among geneticists (no longer controversial in science, regardless of what anthropology majors say: the evidence is just so utterly overwhelming as to be perverse to deny it), is that genes are at least 50-80% of IQ and much of behavior.

    This means, … as the economy develops high-IQ positions for the elite, reinforced by those who need to get there every generation, the smart from every class will float up–

    the rest will sink down.

    If, then, more blacks float down, it could be racism.

    very soon, correlations between many genes and intelligence and personality traits will start to emerge in science. We’re going to paint a new picture of people: As largely genetic machines, with deeply programmed tendencies. Musical skill, overall IQ, ability to abstract, ability to empathize, ability to get angry and violent, ability to delay gratification, tendency to seek adventure and novelty, tendency to fall in love, susceptibility to everything from drug addictions to fears – all of this will start to have mapped genetic links.

    We are not blank slates. This means : When a baby is born, or even just a fetus, we’ll be able to tell much of what potential it has. Potential to be criminal, violent, to perform in school, what kind of education would be best, musical and mathematical skill, etc.

    What then?

    It’s not just racism that’s getting hard-coded in our society’s structure. It’s an entire view of what it means to be human that’s being dismantled.

    If you can’t see this, then it’s very unfortunate.

    Actually, racism is the least disturbing part of this “revolution”. Now that we’re studying what it is to be human on a very basic level, much of the basic assumptions we have about the world are going to come up for debate.

    A lot of sacred cows are about to be sacrificed. Liberal America has a Marxist-inspired absolute belief in the perfectability of mankind, the ability to engineer any kind of society, and the ability to socially redefine everything about people – this is all going to be discarded.

    What will happen when we then learn how to alter these genes?

    Customized, predesigned people? Whole populations? Genetically-programmed castes?

    All of this is possible. Imagine breeding humans the way we breed dogs: Hot sexy humans for sex, 7′ tall massive humans for soldiers, bred to be loyal and love discipline before they’re even trained, bred-in-the-bone artists and hyper-geniuses – or combinations of all these?

    Gattaca, anyone?

    Racism fades away to almost near-irrelevance compared to the ethical kettle of fish we’re opening up.

    By just mapping the genome and linking everything from traits to behaviors to specific gene complexes, we gain huge power to control what it is to be human. We’ve got the technology now, and much of the knowledge; the next 50 years will see this perfected beyond the ability of “social conditioning” academic believers to promote their reform agendas. This is happening right now. Murray is nothing. Wait until you see what science departments start generating. Eliminating genetic diseases is just the very beginning.

    The next step – the engineering of humans, the mixing and matching of genes, the creation of true “versions” of humans from our genetic mix, and even the introduction of new genes that have never before been in humans – maybe 100 years away. That’s likely too long an estimate: I guess this development will occur simultaneously.

    Seriously, Murray is just making note of a real social phenomenon. You can question his motives, but take a look around you. It’s happening right now. If these classes ossify – and if the capable move up and the rest fall down, with modern medicine preventing mass randomness from disease, population shuffling and maybe even allowing controlled breeding – then the game will change. The lower classes will actually be dumber, less capable and economically imprisoned by their own natures.

    What to do then?

    This is a serious social issue. Racism is a complete tangent. it’s not related to it in a serious way except as a possible side-effect.

  34. I was a hard-core social-programming-is-everything liberal until I went to college and got a degree in experimental genetics. No BS.

    What the public knows and what scientists believe and can demonstrate are two different things. The disparate nature of it is staggering. Even non-geneticists are stymied by it. For example, most anthropologists still fall hook, line and sinker for Lewontin’s Fallacy, and Gould’s Mismeasure of Man.
    In the 1980’s, the just was almost in, but it was possible to hide out in the fringes of hard science.

    No longer.

    I’s not just IQ that appears to be largely genetically determined. A whole host of behaviors, even infidelity (in the sense of increased risk – likely related to novelty-seeking and sexuality), are being linked to genetic factors. It’s shocking.

    If you want a parallel, then try this.

    Christian scholars know all kinds of things about early Christianity that would appall mainstream laypeople. Most believing Christians would think Christian scholars were a bunch of Christian-hating unorthodox monsters. In fact, the gap between what Christian scholars know and what the public perceives is so vast, there’s almost no way to bring them together.

    You think I give IQ and genetics too much credit. Alas, not the case.

    I was a hard-core liberal. I decry racism. Alas, there are virtually no serious scientists in the field left who don’t view humans as just another kind of animal that can be described like every other animal.

    The notion of special creation, immunity from natural laws and genetic determinism on some level – all gone.

    It’s irrelevant if you believe me or not. It’s happening right now: Your world is being torn out from under your feet, as you watch. You just don’t see it yet.

    Unlocking the human genome was easily the most revolutionary thing that humans have ever done. It will utterly transform the way we see ourselves. it will completely transform humanity in ways we can’t yet fully imagine.

    Your belief or disbelief is irrelevant.

    Inevitably, we’re going to invent new forms of discrimination so amazingly complex that our racism will seem trite and charming.

    Just wait.


    I don’t believe genes are absolute rules.

    They’re boundaries for statistical probabilities. These play out depending on local, somatic and experiential factors.

    Don’t straw horse me with “Determinism”. Call it more, … boundary delimiters.

    It’s not either-or. It’s not social determinism or genetic determinism. It’s both.

    But there’s a lot more genetics in there than most of us ever want to believe.

    • What idiocy. It is either genetically determined or not. The word games are stupid. I also find strange this kind of true believer faith in genetics. People like this just know that genetics is behind everything. It’s the god they worship. The fact that we still know so little about such things doesn’t stop them from declaring their beliefs.

  35. Gorbachev on Fri 27 Apr 2012 at 02:40:50
    When geneticists talk about genes, they don’t mean determinism. That’s a simplistic bugaboo other people have problems with. Geneticists mean a complex interplay of genes and environment – potentials limited and defined by genes, controlled and expressed through environment.

    Still ,while food will drastically alter height, genes limit its expression and statistically determine outcomes. Of course, you then also have to factor embryology and all levels of environment – not least of which is social.

    But a tendency to be sociopathic is clearly genetic. ANd there are various levels of sociopathy. The root source could be as simple as a chemical imbalance or a tendency to buck authority; or it could be as complex as a whole range of behaviors converging together. Two people might have entirely different reasons for getting there, with the same symptoms.

    That’s the point: We see the expression of genes (a real person). The roots are deep and complex.

    But we are essentially just chemical machines. We are now learning how to read the programming code for these machines. We will soon be able to modify and alter that programming.

    Kiss whatever notion you have about what it means to be human goodbye.

    If you have some idea that geneticists are all about genetic determinism alone – well, that’s your bugaboo.

    We never meant that at all.

    • We barely understand genetics at all. Very little has been found that can be traced back to a single gene. No one has a fucking clue how genetics, epigenetics, and environment interact in complex ways. Even something like height, there is so much going on. Hispanics, for example, are of a shorter than average height in the US for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with genetics.

  36. DOOM

    As it should. It should terrify you and keep you awake at night. You can beieve we have souls or not, believe we are special or not – but science has discovered the code that makes the program work, and is learning how to manipulate it.

    Even learning how to read it is shocking. Imagine if we can determine much of a childs future just from reading its genetic code?

    What does that mean, then, to be human? We turn out to be little more than programmed machines.

    Alas, cockroaches and mice and whales are much the same. Hence, religion and philosophy has been able to consider humans “Distinct” for much of history. No longer. We’re just very complex chemical machines

    Believe me when I say that racism, or race realism, or whatever you want to call it – is easily the very least, the tiniest of the problems all people face.

    I don’t think that is the point that Abagond is trying to make, but you are very knowledgeable about what is happening on the genetic end of things but that part is much bigger than racism. I believe there are forces who will try to it use to as a way to genetically wipe out all minorities if left unchecked..

    Or to change minorities so that – say they look the same on the outside, but are basically white people on the inside. Or that all people have that happen. I mean, at some point, we’re going to get good at genetic surgery: it will be possible to alter the next generation without even having to have a person come into a hospital. Science fiction?

    We’re halfway there.

    There is a bigger picture here, but I am wondering what side of the argument you are coming from because of your name, Gorbachev, is very disturbing if it is in reference to Mikhail Gorbachev. Besides, everyone benefits from government. The rich get richer and the poor say poor because of government. Let’s be honest. Little is left to individuals. There is always some underlying agenda and the benefits of said agenda rarely trickles to the bottom. I know people who work much harder than anyone I know but the powers that be will never allow them to become rich from their hard work. It is from design.

    I was a die-hard “Liberal” and “anti-racist”. Alas, I approached this from a purely science position. It’s wholly reasonable that the “race realists” and whatnot could be talking truth, no matter how racist it seems: from a science perspective, the social effects of a belief are irrelevant. Its fact is important. This is why it’s important to know the current state of this science and more importantly where it’s going.

    You can call it racist, but it’s like calling technology “evil” because people lose jobs to better technology. So what? It’s what happens. Deal with it.

    On “race”, science is still out, but the signs are not good for those who think race is nonexistent or that there are no overall differences between population subgroups.

    On other matters, … this issue of racism pales into insignificance.

    As you rightly realize. The very last thing we should be worrying about – even as black people – is racism. We should be worried about everything else. Panicking, even.

    Believe me when I say that if we walk into this future blind, then the social and political dangers are vast.

    The problem with IQ is that it is limited and not actually an accurate measure of true wisdom.

    It’s not a measure of “wisdom” at all – just of raw computational ability.

    That said, imagine a group of people with IQs of 160. All of them. They’re born with it.

    Now imagine going to school with them.

    According to race-realists, the 1.5 standard deviation between blacks and whites is a huge gap. Okay. I call bullshit on that.

    Imagine 4 standard deviations between the genetically partly engineered new population (maybe even of all races) and the old population.

    From the moment of birth, these babies would be smarter, learn faster, learn better, and be more balanced. Match that with social skills and better training. Then add money and class.

    It’s finished. You have a natural ruling elite which is smarter, more adaptable, and can pas on natural advantages even without money or social rank.

    Your kids sink to the bottom of school results. The very bottom. And these kids are naturally at the top – with no work.

    The ruling class… becomes … actually better than other people.

    That prospect should terrify you. It gives me chills, let me tell you. It’s also virtually guaranteed to happen. Avoiding it now requires massive social chaos and civiliizational collapse – we need to unlearn and stop learning all of our science.

    College degrees and high scores on standardized test can’t make you wise. The best car salesman in the world selling Honda’s will never get rich from his talent, but a mediocre salesman with Bentley’s will fair a lot better.

    The smarter kid will realize this and shift what he’ selling.

    To say the man selling Honda’s is somehow not as smart or capable as the man selling Bentley’s is stupid. That’s what I think of IQ test. It only measure how well you can take a test. You can put a rocket scientist on a farm and all of the real farmers will think he is an idiot because he can’t milk a cow or saddle a horse. Intelligence has many, many dimensions.

    You can think what you want about IQ tests, but imagine 0 just imagine – that another person’s kid was naturally much better at music; math; sports; was better-looking; more charming; more well-adapted.

    Your kids, nomatter how great, would be shunted aside.

    This will absolutely happen to whole classes of people.

    Many people cling to these old arguments about racism. race realists cling to tiny differences in DNA and abilities, as if they’re hugely significant.

    The ability to selectively breed and / or genetically alter humans so radically changes all factors such as to render ethical problems over racism almost irrelevant.

    If some people can’t see this – it’s unfortunate.

    • We are long way from racism being anywhere close to irrelevant. If some people can’t see that – it’s unfortunate. The same old issues remain. It was never really about genetics.

      Racism as an ideology and social order has changed over the centuries. Racists adapt to new knowledge and circumstances. Yet racism itself doesn’t fundamentally change.

      I could imagine that changes could become so immense and drastic that it would be a game changer. But I doubt it will happen any time soon. The forces of the status quo are too strong at present. It would require a cataclysmic event to force change at this point, which is not beyond the realm of possibility.

  37. Gorbachev on Fri 27 Apr 2012 at 03:22:36

    Of course. Shell-shocked would describe it. s you say, “Some things are better left unknown.”
    I was no scary white racist. It’s just that many assumptions we have about humanity in general are dead wrong. They’re comfortable and our political order is built on them, but still dead wrong.
    Racists are also often dead wrong, too; but this is cold comfort.

    Unseating the general niceness of viewing humans as special has side-effects that may sideline racists as well as anti-racists, but what it really does is utterly crush the entire liberal and conservative notion of what it even means to be human at all. And then–

    it gives us tools to change what it means. Easily.

    If that doesn’t scare you, then you just don’t get it. It’s the most profound revolution in history. It makes the printing press look like a child’s toy. Agriculture is positively boring by comparison. And space exploration – who cares? Redefining human existence in a basic way – ouch.

    As for Murray, …

    He’s a political rightey who has, whether even he realizes it or not, hit on a real social effect. He’s using truths from science and observations and half-justified ideology to make a political case. That said, his mismatched motives don’t strip the science of fact and future. That’s the problem.

    My beef with Murray is large, but he’s on essentially the right track: his is a facile message that hints at our broader future. And that future, from a nice, liberal, we’re-all-the-same standpoint is crushingly bleak.

    It’s much bleaker than even Murray is prepared to argue. Remember:

    The downstream effects for both conservative and liberal ideologies for genetic science are devastating in the extreme. It’s nothing less than the complete reconfiguration of how we understand what it is to be human.

    I’m not joking when I say that “racism” will be the tiniest, least relevant ethical issue we’ll have, not because it’s small and irrelevant, but because other ethical issues will make it seem like a simple little problem.

    So Murray has the smugness of someone who has hit on a greater truth, but isn’t sure what to really say about it. And the full implications of this branch of knowledge is as opaque to him as anyone else. And yet —

    Those implications are potentially just as devastating to his progeny as yours.

    Alan Smithee on Fri 27 Apr 2012 at 03:51:25
    How soon should we expect genetically-designed plagues?

    D. on Fri 27 Apr 2012 at 04:02:02

    Well, I never thought humans were special anyway. Hell, I’ve even entertained the notion that intelligent life existed on the planet before us.

    I’m beginning to imagine the consequences: a stratified society with breeds of humans made for a specific purpose. Death to free thought, free will, and that expression of the human soul; can’t have the masses start to think after all. Would there be an elite class of “Originals”? Untampered with to better drive the slave castes towards a single goal? I’m equal parts intrigued and terrified.

    Before I lost my idealism, I thought we’d avoid the Brave New World scenario. Now I’m not so sure. But who would have the audacity to manufacture humans in any way he or she pleased? And who would comply? I think (hope) such technology will go the way of the nuke: used once (okay, twice) to the horror of all and never to be used again.

    On yet another hand, tempering with our genetics may do more harm than good in the long run, and not just the moral implications. We may drive our species (or the transhumans we created) to extinction.

    At the end of the day, it just makes Murray’s drivel all the more worthless, doesn’t it?

    Ace on Fri 27 Apr 2012 at 04:57:48
    @ B.R.

    He’s just a guy twisting real life situations and spreading half-truths to defend a status quo where the wealthy stay wealthy, and the poor are content with the unfairness they deal with.

    grin and bear it on Fri 27 Apr 2012 at 05:07:53
    Murray has no credibility whatsoever. He’s a man who burned a cross on public property, then claimed to not know the significance of such a thing. In 1960. When the Civil Rights Movement was in full swing, and everyone understood the racial implications of something like that — particularly in a state like Iowa, which, historically, had had one of the largest Klan memberships outside of the South.

    To this day, he still dismisses this act of vandalism (and implicit terror), attributing it to reckless youth, and calling it a teenage prank. Perfectly illustrates white male privilege and the double standard inherent in the justice system. According to Murray, he and his “gang” (as he himself described his cohorts) were just horsing around. Apparently, the authorities sided with him, as he got to attend Harvard the next year. Fascinating. Black youth who affiliate with gangs and partake of vandalism go to jail — regardless of their SAT scores. Murray, on the other hand, went straight to Harvard. And yet, he still writes the drivel he does. All the while claiming to have a superior IQ, but apparently one not so keen as to recognize the irony of his life path…

    sam on Fri 27 Apr 2012 at 06:06:58
    Why don’t we see this fella for what he is? He is just a pathetic old guy who is getting older and believes that the world around him going trough the same slow death as he is. A scared little man, a bit lonely and certainly a looney. I personally can not see why anyone would take his seriously pathetic babblings seriously.

    • I don’t think racism is irrelevant, but the likes of Murray is irrelevant. It doesn’t matter what he argues. There are too many clueless people trying to predict the future based on limited understandings of the present. Nothing much will change, until it does and then it will be a doozy. But when those changes come, it is unlikely to go in directions that we suspect.

  38. satanforce on Fri 27 Apr 2012 at 06:34:12
    All things bright and beautiful,
    All creatures great and small,
    All things wise and wonderful,
    The Lord God made them all.

    The rich man in his castle,
    The poor man at his gate,
    God made them high and lowly,
    And ordered their estate.



    I will of course, ignore the irony of reading your comments, right after my audiiobook version of “When Genius Failed: The Rise and Fall of Long-Term Capital Management ” finished. Well, perhaps not.

    I see you have not taken into account, the various rebuttals, to Lynn, Rushton, Jensen, et al that have been posted on this blog and elsewhere. No matter, as your (race realists) infatuation with I.Q. as a catch-all for intelligence, honesty, morality and goodness ignores the many cock-ups by said genii.

    The obvious example to me right now is that of Wall Street, where you have all those 140 IQ Ivy League PH.ds leveraging themselves so hard on abritrages, that they have quite literally crashed the world economy. Or the various cases of academic fraud etc.

    I was a hard-core social-programming-is-everything liberal until I went to college and got a degree in experimental genetics. No BS.

    Why is it that all you race realist types start of by seeing “I used to be a behaviorist liberal, but then I had that one life event, and now I see the truth!” You people have like a manual with all that shit in it? I mean from Asian of Reason to the various other dolts. come on man? That type of Single Issue Event only works for comic book villains.

    Pro tip: Stop with the Liberal = Marxist crap. The Berlin Wall is down. With pop evolutionary psychology and computationalism running public discourse, it’s more Liberal = Scientism.

    As largely genetic machines, with deeply programmed tendencies. Musical skill, overall IQ, ability to abstract, ability to empathize, ability to get angry and violent, ability to delay gratification, ………all of this will start to have mapped genetic links.

    Been hearing all that jazz since they finished the Human Genome Project. But wait, good news!!! We’ve found “The Gene” that determines I.Q.

    Following a brain study on an unprecedented scale, an international collaboration has now managed to tease out a single gene that does have a measurable effect on intelligence. But the effect – although measurable – is small: the gene alters IQ by just 1.29 points.
    And of course, you, being a biologist, have already read this


    “even highly heritable traits can be strongly manipulated by the environment, so heritability has little if anything to do with controllability,”

    The human being is an organism, Gorbachev not a “genetic machine.” It is organism, all of whose organs are interrelated to be whole greater that the sum of its parts, and is profoundly affected by mental states, as well as its surroundings. As biologist, you should be the one telling me this, not the other way around.

    Franklin on Fri 27 Apr 2012 at 06:59:54
    Here’s a five part breakdown on the fallacies of “Coming Apart”. From a white conservative, btw. Just in case someone wants to play “The Liberal Card.”


    satanforce on Fri 27 Apr 2012 at 07:09:53
    Here’s a five part breakdown on the fallacies of “Coming Apart”. From a white conservative, btw. Just in case someone wants to play “The Liberal Card.”

    Hehehehe. Sometimes I wonder why I come to the comments section. Then Franklin posts something…..

    Franklin on Fri 27 Apr 2012 at 07:12:18
    @ Satanforce

    About Race Realists who “saw the light”, that seems to be the trope now. It’s the same exact story with Jared Taylor, Doug1, G.L. Piggy, Unamused, and every other white that follows this nonsense.

    satanforce on Fri 27 Apr 2012 at 07:25:33
    @ Franklin

    At least one guy has caught on. The URL in the first one should be a dead giveaway



    Gorbachev on Fri 27 Apr 2012 at 08:28:25

    You are correct. Murray is a white, privileged and racist guy making a larger point and trying to use science and his work to justify his political stance.

    I want you to consider something, however.

    While his motives are deeply suspect, there is something extremely uncomfortable that has to be dealt with at some point or other.

    While he is a racist prick and is somewhat disingenuous, this does not automatically make his work discardable or prima facie wrong.

    You should be suspicious, but I can tell you he’s onto something.

    This is the risk.

    This “something” that he’s onto is going to become the future in some form or another. And by sticking to old but comfortable dogma, the Left and anyone interested in racial harmony is leaving this newly discovered ground to assholes like Murray.

    Instead of defending the bank slatist we’re-all-the-same notions (that science abandoned wholesale 20 years ago), we need to do something very smart and very sharp.

    We need to claim this new ground for a positive value system that reinforces notions like democracy, universality and even concepts like anti-racism. But this will require compromises. Very serious ones.

    Much of the Marxist analysis of human society will have to be reexamined. The simplistic class analysis of race might have to be reexamined. And I’m not making up horse shit here when I say, the abiilty of evolution to play on even short-term effects over only a few generations is profound.

    I wasn’t joking when I once said that it’s wholly possible, if not even probable, that the Vikings bred themselves into superior warriors: Violent by nature, with increasing numbers of individuals prone from birth to acts of heroic savagery and vicious self-interest, as well as military discipline. The Spartans were both socially and almost assuredly biologically conditioned on some level to perform the way they did. If any aspect of these behaviors are genetically conditioned in any way, social patterns can take a minor fluctuation in gene frequencies and make radical alterations in a population in just a few generations.

    Those same vikings could have easily bred violence out of themselves. Scandinavians might actually be a bunch of peaceniks by birth.

    So when I was commenting at one point about the effects of slavery on American society, I wasn’t being some insane racist. Coming at this from a wholly neutral position via genetics and human biology, the following contentions are not unreasonable in genetic terms, though they require pretty good proof (which does not yet exist):

    – Slavery will affect breeding patterns. *IF* selective patterns were altered, even if they were mostly random, over 5-10 generations, huge shifts in gene frequencies can occur.
    – Eugenic or dysgenic social policies can radically alter the statistical incidence of genes in a gene pool. In other words, it’s not bullshit to hypothesize that the introduction of medicine or constant warfare or even the welfare state could radically alter thre genetic makeup of populations, even in a short period of time
    – Such minor evolutionary effects are easily reversible given the proper selection pressures working in reverse.

    This is the problem. What Murray is saying is entirely possible, from the perspective of human genetics and biology. Whether or not it’s probable or likely depends on the data.

    He’s known to fudge his data. However, a casual look around us (acknowledging historical contingencies like European enslavement of much of the world and the social-catching-up that is now required to get away from that), means that – on its face – such hypotheses are not inherently unreasonable.

    Socially, they may be repugnant.

    This is why it’s critical, if not crucial, to get *ahead* of the science.

    Because, the truth is orobably – we are just chemical machines.And programmable ones, at that.

    Genes set up the patterns. Society focuses, shapes and exaggerates these initial settings.

    So this is the point I always try to make. Even if Murray’s racist interpretation of the science is correct on some level, none of this is static. And the ultimate use of this k nowledge need not serve a racist cause.

    This is the problem faced by genetics researchers. it’s been true for 20 years that many researchers can positively identify racial patterns in genes, have linked certain genes to many behaviors, have linked IQ and genes, have linked sociopathy and genes.

    Gorbachev on Fri 27 Apr 2012 at 08:29:20
    it doesn’t need to be anti-black racism. Murray obviously has this intention on some level.

    Really, it’s just interesting information about human diversity and sub-group dynamics.

    This is the problem. The science itself is interpreted as racism by BOTH sides.

    The racists want to assume full control over the message and the meaning because this reaffirms their position.

    The left wants to tar even the discussion as racist.

    The truth is – sure, there’s disturbing facts in there. The left loses because they give the science to the right. The right loses because they’re grossly misinterpreting the data (which does not send as strong a message as they think it does).

    And both sides miss the true implications. And neither side would like them.

    Gorbachev on Fri 27 Apr 2012 at 08:34:28
    Alan Smithee

    How soon should we expect genetically-designed plagues?

    The viruses and bacteria already exist. scientists at the CDC and other places already experiment on pathogens that are not natural, but represent much more virulent and nasty strains that have been artificially created. That’s old hat now.

    They do this for valid research reasons.

    However, were those diseases to ever get out, …

    In fact, we could engineer plagues that could kill humans or any other animal species or plant soecies for that matter, and kill them in numbers vast beyond measuring.

    We’ve had that ability for 40 years. it’s already been done – and many such organisms have been destroyed, as well. I mean, we need to know how they work. if they could create a brutal Ebola strain, they would, just to see it work, to understand it better. They likely have already.

    Let’s hope to God terrorists never attack one of these research sites.

    Within a few decades, it will be possible to select from among your own genes those that will maximize an offspring’s potential abilities. Later, it will be relatively straightforward to engineer them. After that, I’d guess in the next few hundred years, we’ll be able to create entirely new kinds of human.

    Just wait. Your worst nightmares are actually coming true as you speak.

    It would make a left-leaning reformer weep tears of blood. Possibly literally.

    sklok on Fri 27 Apr 2012 at 08:39:35
    It looks as if “Race Realism”(or at least some parts of it) has been greatly weakened by recent evidence. British data from iq and highly iq-correlated/g loaded tests show small to no Black/White gaps. The data shows the same of South Asian/White scores.

    as the the author of an analysis of some of the data commented at the second link posted by satanforce:

    “Race realism” is falling apart at the seams: (1) You were right about the UK Black-White IQ gap. It’s either greatly narrowed or closed. Refer here and to the related posts:
    (2) You were right about the South African IQ rapidly increasing. Refer to this recent study from Kenya: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2026172

    brahms on Fri 27 Apr 2012 at 08:40:52

    That’s all theoretical – when they can target and replace a defective gene in the blastocyst, I might start paying attention.

    sklok on Fri 27 Apr 2012 at 08:41:17

    David Duke’s book: “My Awakening”

    Gorbachev on Fri 27 Apr 2012 at 08:42:47

    Nobody thinks that IQ is all one gene. The bets estimates are that there are hundreds of genes alone that directly affect IQ, let alone those that have ancillary effects that can potentially affect IQ.

    You don’t need to know the precise genes in play to know that something is making one dog small and one dog big. Selective breeding and assortive mating accomplishes what geneticists want to do, but it does it naturally.

    Quite likely, there are hundreds of genes that affect things like neuron transmission efficiency, neuron health, brain chemistry, key points in embryology, maintenance of cellular health in certain situations, ability to process multiple inputs, brain organization and architecture – and many of them will work in concert. They might even work against each other.

    Humans are jury-rigged legacy-prone information machines, programmed by genes but profoundly affected by local and proximate environments. Social environments further complicate all of this.

    Teasing out single elements is difficult – but not impossible.

    Over time, much like any science, this will become more and more refined.

    Humans are alarmingly clever with this kind of thing. Watch us invent whole new kinds of science and watch us remake ourselves.

    And if he have insufficient wisdom, watch us create whole new species of oppression and discrimination. It’s almost inevitable at this point.

    I’m not too concerned with racism, going forward. I’m more concerned with the new -isms that we’re self-generating.

    sklok on Fri 27 Apr 2012 at 08:45:14
    “…as the the author of an analysis of some of the data commented at the second link posted by satanforce:”

    I meant the first link.

    Gorbachev on Fri 27 Apr 2012 at 08:52:45
    Well, I never thought humans were special anyway. Hell, I’ve even entertained the notion that intelligent life existed on the planet before us.

    Me, too. I find the notion appealing, on some level.

    I’m beginning to imagine the consequences: a stratified society with breeds of humans made for a specific purpose.</I.

    This is entirely possible, even with selective breeding alone. With technology designed for this, it becomes almost inevitable.

    Death to free thought, free will, and that expression of the human soul;</I.

    No — just tight controls on it. I mean, why not make slaves that actively want to be slaves? Why not also make them super sexy? Resistant to disease? Sterile unless they get access to a drug? Imagine the potential.

    can’t have the masses start to think after all. Would there be an elite class of “Originals”? Untampered with to better drive the slave castes towards a single goal? I’m equal parts intrigued and terrified.

    Now you’re getting it.

    Imagine the short-term:

    Elites in many countries (India, China, Japan, the US, the UK, maybe Brazil or even, say, Nigeria) get treatments and have super-babies born. These grow up and automatically move into positions of power, out of sheer competence. They breed with each other.

    Now your elite, after 2 self-reinforcing generations, are actually better people than everyone else, in almost every way. They start to self-isolate.

    more and more families do this. More and more people drop out.

    A true natural slave class emerges: Less bright, less competent, less able to lead themselves than the elite. The elites are smarter, faster, brighter, more attractive, better than everyone else.

    Whereas before, it was just some normal rich guy who randomly happened to be smarter or lucky.

    Now it’s a whole class of people who are, in every sense of the word, just better humans.

    I don’t even want to consider the ethical dilemmas such a society would face.

    And we haven’t discussed genetic modifications yet. Just careful selection.

    Imagine: A high-class “race” of black people who had an average IQ of 160 and were supremely well-adapted. And a mass of black people who self-selected themselves out. The stupid ones. A huge class of 80-90 IQ types.

    Imagine this replicated everywhere. Not just in, say, black America.

    Can you say: WTF to do now?

    We’re most of the way to getting into this situation now.

    Before I lost my idealism, I thought we’d avoid the Brave New World scenario. Now I’m not so sure. But who would have the audacity to manufacture humans in any way he or she pleased?


    You really want to ask that question? let’s try, …


    And who would comply? I think (hope) such technology will go the way of the nuke: used once (okay, twice) to the horror of all and never to be used again.


    You’ll need a powerful government (not a corrupt one – good luck), and by the time you’ve created a new strain of people, you’ll need to start exterminating them.

    On yet another hand, tempering with our genetics may do more harm than good in the long run, and not just the moral implications. We may drive our species (or the transhumans we created) to extinction.

    I totally agree.

    But we’re likely to do it anyway. I mean, we’ve done crazier shit before.

    At the end of the day, it just makes Murray’s drivel all the more worthless, doesn’t it?


    He’s fighting the battles of yesterday.

    I’ve always said that race-realists often miss the point of this science altogether.

    When you rewrite what it means to be human, the conservative and racist positions collapse as quickly as the lefty – anti-racism positions.

    What you end up with is something altogether new. And terrifying.

    But this is what the science is saying.

    • Reading discussions like that makes me think that it never has much to do with science or any other area of knowledge. It’s a debate of ideologies. At this point, the data is too minimal and unclear to have much of a conclusion beyond stating it’s complex. But that doesn’t seem to satisfy most people who want to defend a specific belief about human nature and society. I realize it isn’t much fun waiting for more and better data to come along.

  39. D. on Tue 1 May 2012 at 15:59:56

    Gorbachev, if I thought this conversation was unethical, I’d have ducked out long ago. The uber Liberals are only in your mind. . . did you know that Whites are more prone to psychosis? We’ll get to that in a second

    As far as Africa and the North is concerned, I’d note that the trend seems to be North – South; and a very good hypothesis exists to account for this: selective pressures in a constantly changing environment in the North, combined with the advent of agriculture and state societies. State societies profoundly changed human mating patterns, as well as transferable wealth: Wealth that can be handed down through generations.

    The moment that happened, I’d suspect that self-domestication began to occur among those who could not escape these new norms back into the bush. Without the freedom to escape from state societies, the genetic distribution for certain traits would start to shift.

    As I thought, you haven’t opened a history book in a while. Civilization started in the South. Agriculture appeared in the Levant. State societies began in Egypt, Mesopotamia, India, and the only exception is China. Agriculture has existed in the rest of Africa too for thousands of years; West Africans were the ones who brought the indigo plant to the Americas. Aside from Greece and Rome, Europe produced nothing of worth before the first century AD. Greece and Rome are about as southern as you can get in Europe, and even they were late to the show.

    Now, let’s reverse the gaze, shall we?

    It was quite the opposite in North Europe, actually. The feudal system was forged in an environment teeming with violence, theft, and rape. So, the farmers and crafters swore fealty to a Lord with the martial power to protect them with swords, shields, and fortifications. Then they made war with other Lords and their swords. European countries came to be after centuries of bloody conquest, conflict, and backstabbing. Most of the wealth was accumulated at the top, not through cognitive agility but through sheer brute strength of arms. The harsh climate of Europe, of course, served to foster this brutal, dog-eat-dog mentality. So, when Europe was unleashed onto the world at large, thanks to the learned Arabs and Afro-Arabs, it’s no surprise that it lead to a mass extinction and suffering of human, plant, and animal life.

    As for self-domestication:

    “The negroes possess some admirable qualities. They are seldom unjust, and have a greater abhorrence of injustice than any other people. Their sultan shows no mercy to anyone who is guilty of the least act of it. There is complete security in their country. Neither traveller nor inhabitant in it has anything to fear from robbers or men of violence. They do not confiscate the property of any white man who dies in their country, even if it be uncounted wealth. On the contrary, they give it into the charge of some trustworthy person among the whites, until the rightful heir takes possession of it. They are careful to observe the hours of prayer, and assiduous in attending them in congregations, and in bringing up their children to them.”

    -Ibn Battuta on the People of Mali.

    All it means is that in THIS economy, STRUCTURED this way for members of ONE culture or ethnic background, MAXIMIZED for a given population group –

    Simple expecting members of another culture group to just painlessly adapt it to themselves without making some changes is perhaps hoping for too much.

    What can I say, we just aren’t cruel and selfish enough to thrive in your capitalist/ neo-feudalist society. Perhaps in 20 years we’ll wise up and enslave/ imperialize you. /sarcasm

    Yes, it couldn’t be because our still segregated education in inner cities generally sucks (and got worse when the states took over), and college is becoming too damn expensive. Or that we are disproportionally charged, arrested, and disenfranchised because of victimless crimes that White boys get away with all the f*cking time (I met those White boys, so don’t try to pull the wool over my eyes.) It couldn’t be because you’ve sabotaged the entire world aside from Japan and China to serve as a factory for goods the West wants and needs for cheap and abusive prices. And it couldn’t be because you’ve only released your imperial grip on the world about fifty years ago; there are people alive who can remember it! It couldn’t be because your neo-colonialist economic grip survives to this day. As I said before: come back to Planet Earth.

    Tyrone on Tue 1 May 2012 at 17:46:40
    @The Cynic

    Affirmative-Action was created for black folk, but, it morphed into something else. Two specific groups of people that had no business being lumped in with blacks as minorities…whitewomen and white spaniards. How can either of them be labeled as a minority when they’re white? Wonder why local and cable news has so many whitewomen, Affirmative-Action? Another example of black people paving the way for somebody else’s success.


    Wilson on Tue 1 May 2012 at 20:37:00
    @ Gorbachev,

    Please answer this:

    Brazil produces very good soccer players. The Brazilian soccer team is one of the best in the world and has been for decades now. Generation after generation of worldclass soccer players. So there must be a reason for it, can’t be mere chance(not for generation after generation), there must be an underlying factor.

    Is this because of race?

    Wilson on Tue 1 May 2012 at 20:44:44
    @ Gorbachev,

    More information if you didn’t know.

    The Brazilian soccer team doesn’t constitute one race, don’t apply North American prejudices here e.g. ice hockey mainly for whites, basketball mainly for blacks.

    It is everything from black through mixed to white and has been for decades yet they produce the best players over and over and over again.

    I’d be very interested to hear your reasons for this.

    joshua on Wed 2 May 2012 at 04:05:23
    I think Gorbachev has been reading too much science fiction. We’re a long way from manipulating more than very basic genetic factors.

    The focus in any case for quite a while would be on correcting genetic defects. Ones I would like to see fixed are those such as the flawed gene that prevents humans from synthesizing Vitamin C. The problem even with this is the law of unintended consequences: what other impact will it have and are such experiments on humans ethical?

    Brahms on Thu 3 May 2012 at 18:13:45

    “Race realists” really want with all their hearts and souls for black people to be inferior.”

    That’s not true. I would like to believe that blacks are stuck in their state because of welfare which is what Thomas Sowell and Walter Williams believe. Even if the IQ theory is correct, it may not be the reason for the problem (there are millions of low IQ whites out there yet blacks at 12% of population commit 50% of murders). I’d like to know what the problem really is – all you can give me is white racism but white racism cannot explain black out of wedlock birth rates and many other realities – so your theory is obviously weak.

    D. on Thu 3 May 2012 at 18:30:12

    Selective reading is unhealthy, you know. You don’t know anything about African history, like Gorbachev, so you jump to conclusions. We had no problem living and building stable societies before White explorers, slavers, and conquerors showed up. Many Africans traditionally valued virginity, family, and parenthood and held to those values. Every societal ill is the result of the 2nd class citizenship we are given, previously de jure and now de facto.

    You wont find your answer in the blood, no matter how hard you try.

    Brahms on Thu 3 May 2012 at 18:45:34

    “I can’t get that from white racists. Despite the fact that their position is as undermined by expanding knowledge of human genetics as marxist equalists”

    Could you expound on this statement?

    Would you also explain Lewontin’s Fallacy?


    Brahms on Thu 3 May 2012 at 19:45:11
    “Ironic that some of the most renowned ancient civilizations have descendants with the lowest IQs. Civilization seems to be inversely related to IQ! ”

    Those civilizations were not advanced when compared with the West.

    D. on Thu 3 May 2012 at 19:55:35
    They were more advanced than the West was at the time. The West has only been on top for the last 500 years. The West is not a Cradle of Civilization. Aside from Greece and Rome, they did nothing of interest for the bulk of recorded history. Don’t take it from me, there’s plenty of writing on the Germanic and British tribes, courtesy of Greek historians.

    Brahms on Wed 9 May 2012 at 22:13:39

    To which low IQ civilizations are you referring? I assume you’re talking about pre-Columbian America?

    Yet, I’m still confused as to how whites cause black promiscuity and parental neglect.

    D. on Wed 9 May 2012 at 23:11:10
    The Mayans, why not. Although, all of them throw a wrench in your hypothesis.

    Yet, I’m still confused as to how whites cause black promiscuity and parental neglect.

    Poverty + sexual revolution + 100 years of disenfranchisement + an already fragile family due to slave auctioning = disaster. That’s my crack at it. Seriously though, ask a sociologist for the details. I’m a biologist (in training) with a passing interest in history.

    Herneith on Wed 9 May 2012 at 23:38:31
    Hey Brahms! Were you on vacation again? How’s Doug 666, Spliff, and incontinent truth doing? Pass on my regards to them!

    • ” I’d like to know what the problem really is – all you can give me is white racism but white racism cannot explain black out of wedlock birth rates and many other realities – so your theory is obviously weak.”

      Well, one thing is clear. His ignorance (obviously not weak) is the cause of his lack of understanding.

  40. Well shyt

    D. on Tue 1 May 2012 at 05:34:40

    And I suppose the greatest wrench in your vaporish hypothesis, according to your words, is none other than Black America.

    You see, we were subjected to artificial breeding, at least before the closing of the Slave trade. The most docile slaves would survive, while the more confrontational individuals would be swiftly and violently dealt with. And yet we are, in your words, “Sociopathic Animals”. Now, I admit that I’m green in the field of biology, but that seems a bit counter-intuitive, no?

    Ace on Tue 1 May 2012 at 06:44:20
    @ Gorbachev

    “I’ve gone to some length to remain anonymous on the Internet, because in my job, I’d be canned for having the wrong opinion. Media. It’s literally that harsh. I know a guy who was a republican and he was slowly edged out of his job just for that fact. It was said as much when he was gone.”

    So which is it. Opinion or fact? Remember they aren’t the same.

    “I have a master’s degree in experimental genetics. I experiments on mammals and helped develop several modified strains for laboratory testing. One thing we bred for was sociability: subjects that were more/less social with each other. This was straightforward to breed. What was shocking was how few generations were necessary to shift the population from one extreme to another. Once a critical mass of individuals sported a given trait, the rest were forced by “socializing” to adapt or suffer. I left the field to work and marry and get actual money.”

    Which pertains to race realism how? Any scientist should know that there are always outside variables to consider.

    “Ideas are not unethical. In this case, it’s both biologically reasonable and likely genetically demonstrable that there are significant differences between races. If you don’t like the word “race”, we can exchange it for another term.”

    No there isn’t No matter how much you like to pretend there is, there really isn’t. Sorry.

    “I’m sure you can acknowledge that some people have serious adaptations that merit notice.

    1) West Africans and speed running over short distances. Gold medals go to countries that tend to have descendants of West African origin in them.
    2) Long-distance running: East Africa
    3) Height: Northern Europeans are on average much taller than most others. The Dutch are very tall. This is clearly genetic, modified by environment.
    4) Inuit and adaptations to the cold
    5) Andean natives and some very remarkable adaptations to high-altitude living. These are hard-coded genetic adaptations.”

    1. Not true. Takes a lot of hard work. I was a sprinter for ten years.
    2. Definitely not true, takes a lot of practice.
    3. Seen taller people in Africa. Genes relate to height, but your race doesn’t decide that.
    4. I find it odd how many Nordic people like to come to warmer climates in the winter.
    5.You can adapt up to high altitudes too by living there. That’s why so many long distance runners like to train in high altitudes.

    “So it’s fine to talk about *these* very obvious, undeniable racial differences. if you don’t like the term, let’s call it “genetic lineage / ancestry””

    No. Because they’re not undeniable or obvious. Your cherry picking traits while ignoring others, your even ignoring their exceptions. Not a very scientific way of thinking, especially for someone who claims to have worked in a scientific field.

    “But for reasons of political correctness and “Ethical Thinking and Ethically Correct Ideas”, for some reason–”

    Not political correctness, but logic. There is a big difference you know. And yes, I find that using racial differences as policy is by it’s very nature unethical, because your not using fact, your using cherry-picked data to fulfill a specific agenda. There is no honesty or account for deviation.

    All adaptation, all group differences *stop* at the Brain.

    “I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that if you believe this, you’re absolutely, dead wrong.”

    And I can actually attest to the fact that you are wrong.

    “The problem is that you so desperately need for this to be true, as do so many people, that you’re willing to believe it regardless. Well, …”

    No I don’t need this to be true, I just know that your way isn’t accurate and has been disproven by accurate science as well as lived in experience. I have no real reason to need anything in regards to this. You on the other hand seem awfully invested in this “racial difference” thing. Anything to keep the status quo hm? Actually very politically correct of you.

    “Humans are nothing more than large mammals with some interesting adaptations. If genetic programs profoundly affect the sexes in other mammals, you can bet your bottom dollar that they affect the human sexes, too. You can bet your life that genetics program for gender and society reinforces it. It’s not a blank slate.”

    Which explains why there are so many transgendered and genderqueer people in the world. Oh wait, actual scientists have said that gender is mental and sex is physical?

    “You can also bet that much of what a child can ever do is decided long before it’s born.

    This is because we are animals, not special creations.”

    Never said we were “special”. I’m just not going to blindly subscribe to an outdated theory of race and genetics because it fits my personal prejudices.

    “You desperately need to believe that “race realists” as you call them are a bunch of KKK white supremacy nutbars out to lynch every last black man on Earth and rape their women.”

    Never said that. I’m not even black. Odd that you’d say that if you are a “scientist”. Most scientists I know don’t think in absolutes, nor do they make those kinds of assumptions. At least real scientists.

    “This says more about you than it ever could about me. Or many “race realists”.”

    How? That I don’t subscribe to a theory that elevates one race above another that was used to excuse a whole manner of atrocities? How terrible of me. I should just pretend that I’m inferior to a white person based on inaccurate data that doesn’t even represent me or any of my ancestors. That’s far more appropriate. Thanks for clearing that up!

    “The science of genetics supports the “blank slate” / “Equalist” position not at all. It hasn’t for a generation. In fact, it’s utterly destroyed it.”

    In your fantasy world maybe.

    “Every day, more and more studies and refinements are published that further demolish this idea.”

    Not even. If your referring to the usual crackpot stuff that get’s corrected and deleted, then no, I don’t think those count as legitimate anything.

    “It doesn’t matter what you believe, from my perspective. I actually don’t care much. I was just looking for intelligent NON-EMOTIONAL discussion of these issues free of addled ideology and wishful thinking.”

    Of course. Anyone who doesn’t agree that the races are somehow different must be emotional or ideological! Although you just resorted to ideological thinking right up in your response. i suppose if I were black you would just call me a “Emotional Negro”. I do have to admit, it does get annoying when self-promoted “experts” talk about the potential of people they’ve made no effort to know and expect them all to nod and say they agree. I thought scientists were open to correction?

    “I can’t get that from white racists. Despite the fact that their position is as undermined by expanding knowledge of human genetics as marxist equalists, here, apparently, the same blindness and need to believe is apparent.”

    Again, you just complained about “ideology” and you throw out “Marxist”. For your info I’m a centrist who was raised in a centrist household. I even wanted to vote Republican before it became “vogue” in 2008. There goes your “marxist” theory.

    “So you go on and impute any evil motivation to me you like. If it makes you feel better, or if uttering pithy statements to the effect that “White people are injured on some level they need our pure Blackness to have something of value”, …”

    Yep. Never said anything like that. Ever. At all. Just called you out on your own words. You tried to use “race realism”, so you really opened the door to that didn’t you? How about you act like a scientist and don’t make statements you aren’t prepared to own up? And here I thought scientists liked to use FACTS to argue with, not ideology? Your own words right?

    “then fine.”

    “There’s nothing worse than a true believer. And as much as you decry the narcissism and vainglorious ideological claptrap of the Right, you’re like the proverbial pot calling the kettle black. You wallow in the same ideological soup, it just has different ingredients. But the muck is identical.”

    Says you. I don’t think I even mentioned the “Right” except for the fact that I didn’t like how so many of them subscribe to these theories. I even put my own father’s example of why that way of thinking really hurts potential right up there. It’s telling that you’d much rather focus on me disagreeing with you and my supposed “ideology”.

    That’s totally fine by me. I’m going to sit here and believe that using data that only seems to pop up whenever there’s time to make policy or stamp on the “darkies”, is by it’s very nature insidious and not worth serious scientific consideration.

    Gorbachev on Tue 1 May 2012 at 10:26:52
    Alrightey then. Everyone wants to put heads in sand.


    Already, genes for things like tendency to fall in love to tendency to be unable to pay attention are being found; correlations for IQ are hot on everyone’s list to identify and quantify. Once these are identified, there will be searches to find them in global populations. Variations on these genes will be observed.

    Within 15 years, I expect much of this to be mapped out.

    As far as being right-wing, I’m not: I’m a civil libertarian that leans to the left. I decry any kind of oppressive government in any form. I loathe them. I hate the idea of people being denied the freedom to choose and succeed.

    That’s not a recipe for right wing extremism.

    I also both accept and don’t object to a “multiracial” society in America. Far from it.

    Just this:

    – The breaking point for genetically programmed social behaviors in rats, the threshold point where the social order must readapt and other individuals must accomodate the new genetically-selected traits begin to demand changes in the social order and thence the other individuals must alter their behavior to compensate was, depending on what we were looking for (breeding a much more docile and a much more aggressive strain of norway rat), was 5 generations, with 6 being the point where all other individuals needed to compensate.

    The lone aggressive rat in a group of very passive rats actually incurred huge social losses. However, this dynamic shifted at generation 3; by the time there were 20% aggressive rats, those who were passive started to adapt (unsuccessfully, by and large) until what we noticed was this: The passive rats lashed out and were deadly when provoked. it was unmoderated aggressive behavior. Clearly, the aggressive behavior of the few rats who were, while not lethal, quite clearly abnormally agitative, inspired passive-aggressive reactions from the more passive rats.

    At 5 generations, the breeding scales tipped and the passive rats lost chances to breed (as well as offspring to cannibalism). And then a new social order, a much more chaotic one, was created. By the end of the process, when we achieved some kind of equilibrium, it was an intensely violent one.

    While this was true for rats, and the behavior we were selecting for was relatively simple and straightforward (in fact, related to a specific hormone that could be tested for), and humans are rather more complex–

    The same process holds true. I’ll bet that social reinforcement, dynamic interplay and variable breeding success would radically shift some traits in a given human gene pool within a relatively few series of generations.

    As far as Africa and the North is concerned, I’d note that the trend seems to be North – South; and a very good hypothesis exists to account for this: selective pressures in a constantly changing environment in the North, combined with the advent of agriculture and state societies. State societies profoundly changed human mating patterns, as well as transferable wealth: Wealth that can be handed down through generations.

    The moment that happened, I’d suspect that self-domestication began to occur among those who could not escape these new norms back into the bush. Without the freedom to escape from state societies, the genetic distribution for certain traits would start to shift.

    I’d note that not all is”bad” for Africa in this regard. Because it’s the place where Homo Sapiens originated, the original cradle, as it were, there are more diseases and parasites that affect humans there. This means that you’d expect much greater disease resistance among Africans generally, and this is what you find.

    I’d also note that significant differences exist that are relatively recent: The ability to digest milk and milk products as an adult, for example. Bantu peoples, whose migrations are historically attested and very recent, have no trouble digesting milk products even as adults. Unfortunately, many of their neighbors have trouble with this: this is a digestive adaptation to a particular lifestyle.

    The same is true for the ability to digest pulses and grains. It’s been suggested by Korean geneticists that various gene combinations exist in Koreans that allow Koreans to take advantage of fermented foods more easily than others; and to digest rice and related grains more efficiently. Korea’s population went through a terrible bottleneck, according to genetic evidence, at roughly the same time it acquired agriculture. The result might have been terrible selective pressure on the survivors.

    I’m telling you: If these things might possibly be true for digestion, high-altitude lung and circulatory adaptations, and even such things as height (ie, pygmies are just genetically short people) – then it’s not a big stretch nor is it unreasonable to conclude that genetic differences might account for differential success at tasks originating in one culture – population zone and transferred to another culture population zone.

    I’d note that the IQ maps that everyone hates so much have one thing in common: Northern origins seem to be the one powerful linking factor.

    This does not mean Papua New Guineans can’t invent writing or civilization. You’re taking it to far if you think this is what I’m saying.

    All it means is that in THIS economy, STRUCTURED this way for members of ONE culture or ethnic background, MAXIMIZED for a given population group —

    Simple expecting members of another culture group to just painlessly adapt it to themselves without making some changes is perhaps hoping for too much.

    That appears to be the case. Racism given, even with imperialism, the world does seem to be structured in this manner.

    Given that humans are just animals, and replicate many of the same trends, it’s more than likely even before examining specific evidence that not all groups will be equally endowed in every area.

    There is some evidence that aging affects black people different. Also, West Africans have significantly better disease resistance. I once heard a hypothesis that obligatory disease resistance among those descended from West Africans results in less metabolic (general) expenditure on other things – from an evolutionary perspective. It’s interesting. I saw no evidence for it, but it’s not implausible.

    The point is:

    It’s not unethical to debate these things and do comprehensive research into racial, ethnic and population differences. In fact, there’s nothing ethical or unethical about it:

    Humans are just interesting rats or squirrels. No ethical considerations apply to basic research into the human genetic and social makeup. We should do whatever seems promising or productive to research the underlying features of human nature.

    If this means treading on the toes of racists, sexists, feminists or anti-racists – then science should ignore all of their concerns and just plow ahead.

    And this is what it’s doing.

    Within 50 years, expect a comprehensive map of the human genome to include such things as behavior, natural talents, social inclinations and organizational imperatives.

    Want to bet money that this map will show regional, lineage and (can I say it ) racial differences?

    if not, we can come back and have this conversation in 20 years.

    B. R. on Tue 1 May 2012 at 12:00:40
    Gorbachev , I dont know where to begin, except to say, better advise your genetical engineers to hold off on looking for “intelligence” genes, until the scientists really discover what true “intellignece” is.

    I mean you are aware of all the recent scientific studies that are showing that the intuitive being is reacting way faster than the thinking brain.

    That means what ever concepts that we thought meant real intelligence, are becoming ancient and a relic as we speak

    Yes, lets have this conversation 20 years down the line when the whole world is going to start to awaken to how to get more in touch with their intuition and feelings as far as how to go about daily life with the best results. They will have to start isolating genes that will put a person in a better way to feel life and understand their intuition better…

    Something I practice everyday using West African concepts about how to be more in touch with intuition and feeling .

    Ace, you have a lot of stamina to argue every point Gorbachev has made, and done it well

    D. on Tue 1 May 2012 at 15:59:56

    Gorbachev, if I thought this conversation was unethical, I’d have ducked out long ago. The uber Liberals are only in your mind. . . did you know that Whites are more prone to psychosis? We’ll get to that in a second

    As far as Africa and the North is concerned, I’d note that the trend seems to be North – South; and a very good hypothesis exists to account for this: selective pressures in a constantly changing environment in the North, combined with the advent of agriculture and state societies. State societies profoundly changed human mating patterns, as well as transferable wealth: Wealth that can be handed down through generations.

    The moment that happened, I’d suspect that self-domestication began to occur among those who could not escape these new norms back into the bush. Without the freedom to escape from state societies, the genetic distribution for certain traits would start to shift.

    As I thought, you haven’t opened a history book in a while. Civilization started in the South. Agriculture appeared in the Levant. State societies began in Egypt, Mesopotamia, India, and the only exception is China. Agriculture has existed in the rest of Africa too for thousands of years; West Africans were the ones who brought the indigo plant to the Americas. Aside from Greece and Rome, Europe produced nothing of worth before the first century AD. Greece and Rome are about as southern as you can get in Europe, and even they were late to the show.

    Now, let’s reverse the gaze, shall we?

    It was quite the opposite in North Europe, actually. The feudal system was forged in an environment teeming with violence, theft, and rape. So, the farmers and crafters swore fealty to a Lord with the martial power to protect them with swords, shields, and fortifications. Then they made war with other Lords and their swords. European countries came to be after centuries of bloody conquest, conflict, and backstabbing. Most of the wealth was accumulated at the top, not through cognitive agility but through sheer brute strength of arms. The harsh climate of Europe, of course, served to foster this brutal, dog-eat-dog mentality. So, when Europe was unleashed onto the world at large, thanks to the learned Arabs and Afro-Arabs, it’s no surprise that it lead to a mass extinction and suffering of human, plant, and animal life.

    As for self-domestication:

    “The negroes possess some admirable qualities. They are seldom unjust, and have a greater abhorrence of injustice than any other people. Their sultan shows no mercy to anyone who is guilty of the least act of it. There is complete security in their country. Neither traveller nor inhabitant in it has anything to fear from robbers or men of violence. They do not confiscate the property of any white man who dies in their country, even if it be uncounted wealth. On the contrary, they give it into the charge of some trustworthy person among the whites, until the rightful heir takes possession of it. They are careful to observe the hours of prayer, and assiduous in attending them in congregations, and in bringing up their children to them.”

    -Ibn Battuta on the People of Mali.

    All it means is that in THIS economy, STRUCTURED this way for members of ONE culture or ethnic background, MAXIMIZED for a given population group –

    Simple expecting members of another culture group to just painlessly adapt it to themselves without making some changes is perhaps hoping for too much.

    What can I say, we just aren’t cruel and selfish enough to thrive in your capitalist/ neo-feudalist society. Perhaps in 20 years we’ll wise up and enslave/ imperialize you. /sarcasm

    Yes, it couldn’t be because our still segregated education in inner cities generally sucks (and got worse when the states took over), and college is becoming too damn expensive. Or that we are disproportionally charged, arrested, and disenfranchised because of victimless crimes that White boys get away with all the f*cking time (I met those White boys, so don’t try to pull the wool over my eyes.) It couldn’t be because you’ve sabotaged the entire world aside from Japan and China to serve as a factory for goods the West wants and needs for cheap and abusive prices. And it couldn’t be because you’ve only released your imperial grip on the world about fifty years ago; there are people alive who can remember it! It couldn’t be because your neo-colonialist economic grip survives to this day. As I said before: come back to Planet Earth.

    • I’ve always wondered along these lines:

      “You see, we were subjected to artificial breeding, at least before the closing of the Slave trade. The most docile slaves would survive, while the more confrontational individuals would be swiftly and violently dealt with. And yet we are, in your words, “Sociopathic Animals”. Now, I admit that I’m green in the field of biology, but that seems a bit counter-intuitive, no?”

      Race realist just-so stories often don’t make much sense when you give them much thought.

  41. What is wrong with America is the desire to make that which is local and particular, global and eternal.

    HBDers believe that this snapshot of history must be representative of all time and the result of innate tendancy.

    Libertardians believe that the “state of nature” looked something like modern society with less technology (and barter economies). Libertardians believe that whoever “has money” now “must” deserve it and their families must have always deserved it.

    These ideologies can only arise in divisive societies with irrational animus extended toward several groups. That’s all they are: ways of justifying the suffering of the “unfavored.”

    Rather than question society, the HBDer appeals to “behavioral genes” (none of which have been found and no independent effect mechanisms expounded — it’s just astrology or “noble blood” redux); the libertardian appeals to a fantasyland paradise that never existed. Even psychologists pathologize individuals with a plethora of “disorders” that show a remarkable correlation with societal income inequality.

    These are all ways to reinforce basic cognitive biases, with the just world hypothesis being at the fore. They allow one to ignore reality and posit some hypothetical situation that will free them from any guilt.

    Where does that leave “capitalism?”

    Capitalism began as moral philosophy. The whole aim and objective was to improve the lot of those who lived under it. It was a new method of producing an outcome. It was never intended to be “good per se.” So when less regulation is producing a bad outcome for individuals, anyone who starts arguing that the “market” should be further set free is an imbecile.

    • Many lives have been destroyed like this. It tends to happen to minorities. Racial or ethnic minorities are often the target, but in the past such as the Cold War there were other targets such as perceived sexual deviants.

  42. the AM acceptance of HBD is a form of little man complex. Admittedly, we’ve been crushed in the whole IR marketplace–an Asian dude has to make $24k more than a White dude to be viewed as equally attractive among Asian women. The AFCC and the American media have beaten us worse than those cops beat Rodney King. Because it’s easier to get stuck in the past, a lot of Asian men live neither in the present nor see the future. Many of our Asian brothers are therefore seeking to boost their self-esteem by focusing on what even White racists will acknowledge–that we’re smart. It’s much easier to roll with the punches–“You say my race is smart but feminine? Fine, I agree! (Except for me, since I’m 6’1 and athletic and deserve to be the superintendent of minorities.).”

    It’s easier to think retroactively than to see possibility. It’s a lazy man’s way of thinking, a defensive way of thinking, and with the power of the Ku Klux Klan and White supremacist institutionalized racism behind them, these HBD supporting Asian men think they can win. They don’t realize that they’re being used. They don’t realize that they’re capable of much more than what White racists have defined as Asian limitations.

    We’ve been co-opted by racists. If you look at history, it’s a classic strategy of appointing a house slave to oversee and keep the rest of the minorities in check. The racists find vulnerable high-IQ Asian men to be their stooges, convincing them to deny the effect of institutional racism and mass media on our minority populations, convincing them that sexual equality is out of their reach, ascribing their failures in life to genes rather than circumstance. The irony is that these racist ideas have been within the culture for the last 200 years, and minorities as a whole have improved a lot since then, far past the limits that the enlightened racists of the nineteenth century ascribed to us.

    “Race realism”/HBD is just another form of racist love designed to smother us and turn us all into Uncle Chans.

    For the subject to operate efficiently as an instrument of white supremacy, he is conditioned to accept and live in a state of euphemized self-contempt. This self contempt itself is nothing more than the subject’s acceptance of white standards of objectivity, beauty, behavior, and achievement as being morally absolute, and his acknowledgment of the fact that, because he is not white, he can never fully measure up to white standards.

    FUCK THAT SHIT. FUCK HBD/RACE REALISM. It’s no more than some retarded 21st century phrenology dressed up in new, but equally transparent, threads. If you believe in that stupid bullshit, gtfo and go back to /r/Coontown, we dun need no fuarking self-loathing mental midgets acting as ankle weights for our cause, you heard?

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    [–]ChinaQueef-Latinah 1 point 2 months ago*
    I’m fucking awake dude. That was not expected

    permalinksaveparentgive gold
    [–]ChinaQueef-Latinah 1 point 1 month ago
    I will continue to be for our cause, and nothing you say can stop me.

    That was an inspiring article, a reminder to not be handicapped by research that says what one will amount to. Thank you for that.

    But are you using that as a copypasta whenever this topic is brought up? Have you actually read any scientific studies on racial differences in many objective and measurable aspects (black/other greater than Asian/white by the way, and with huge overlap).

    There’s mountains of stuff out there. Some of it has been used as cannon fodder by stormfags, hbd’s, and many other movements. But ultimately the science is what matters.

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  43. [–]diadegloria 6 points 1 month ago*
    ….However, “injustice” implies that there is a standard of justice that we expect to be treated by. In order to give ourselves the advantage we want so much, we must first understand that this “injustice” is the natural way of things, that it is no “fault” of white people, and that we ourselves are alone responsible for getting ourselves out of this situation.

    Not really. I mean, that would be ignoring history in favour of a bad ad-hoc explanation based on pseudoscientific anthropology that has been debunked by scientists and even laymen, again and again.


    There are several unavoidable trends of human behavior caused by biologically inherent biases.

    Fair enough, go on.

    Trend #1: People tend to feel an affinity towards people own race, if only because they act look and act like them.

    Okay, I can work with that—as long as you understand that race is not a fixed concept, rather, we are merely floating pools of genetic drift and clinal variation. And categorisations have been wildly different at different periods of time. (Look at old world race maps from the late 18th century onwards, and watch how they evolved.)

    If you take this into consideration, I agree with you. Humans are rather tribalistic by nature. This point is valid, and can be observed on an empirical level and taking a peak at history. See: Hutus and Tutsis. So far, so good.

    Trend #2: People tend to be attracted to the perception of power. Perhaps the most important thing. We are living in a white-dominated world right now. It is the unavoidable trend for the more powerful to exploit their power. When Europeans had industry and weapons and the rest of the world didn’t, they took advantage of it. Any other group of people would have done the same. Unfortunately, people now associate regular white faces with several powerful white faces.

    This is valid. See: history of colonisation and how it affected beauty standards around the world. So far, still good.

    Trend #3: People are naturally attracted to** certain** physical traits. Many of these biases are evolutionary.

    Sure, like markers of health. However, we still do not fully understand these things within our species—but it is getting clearer with better biotech. In the history of pseudoscience, however, especially with the lack of technology—this was the consequence of old-style biased speculation.


    Tall, broad-shouldered men that implies strength

    The “average” face (asian americans are NOT the “average face” in a caucasian society)

    “Exotic” women that means greater genetic diversity

    Submissive women that imply an easier fuck

    ??? The way this aligns with the history of emasculation, looks like a post hoc ergo propter hoc-esque argument. Point 2 in particular is a little bizarre when juxtaposed with the third point. A lot of this easily and sometimes blatantly originates in culture and history—particularly the idea of “submissive” women. Humans are not a niche species, humans are actually rather generalist in nature. Which actually makes us harder to pin down with evolutionary psychology because of how adaptable we’ve been as a species (see: lack of consistency throughout human history, or vast intercultural variation)

    It is NATURAL for people to adore symbols of power. It is NATURAL to be at an advantage if you’re tall and your shoulders are broad (even in asian countries). It is NATURAL for people to ostracize foreigners. The Asian American male is stuggling becuase he is put in a situation where it is NATURAL for him to be at a disadvantage. So the Asian American must stack all sorts of self-created advantages to combat these natural disadvantages.

    Define foreigners? Nation states are a fairly recent concept in human history. Again, human psychology still isn’t so simple as to work with what we have ~now~ and work backwards. Hence why attempts to do so, end up as blatant post hoc fallacies. Popular culture has this idea of science, and much of it is still outdated–hence the knee-jerk of internet communities guessing “nature” about any and everything, without vigorous research. You end up with some things that are correct, some things that are half-truths, and some things that are so wrong that they are not even wrong.

    Consider this: If China was the global military, political and cultural powerhouse, Mandarin was the world language, and China was regarded as the leader of the “free world”, I would bet that most white people and non-chinese people will feel a bit tiny bit inferior. A white man trying to climb a chinese corporate ladder simply wouldn’t get as much respect. Unfortunately, history kind of screwed us over and this world probably won’t exist for another few hundred years.

    I’m a little baffled because you seem to understand fully how important the role of recent history is, and yet jump the gun on biology. Because this is correct, a skit has even been made about it around this sub by one of the posters here.

    As for the thing on big eyes—-those are actually considered a feminine and neotenous trait, but desirable because of the soft power from Western nations.

    We can’t achieve anything if we don’t first acknowledge what is going on.

    Which has been done by looking into the past, and understanding time. What is going on for Asians is not biological considering the fact that the category of “Asians”, by no means, is homogeneous (see: genetic drift)

    Bigger brows and jaw lines are masculine traits whatever culture you ask. Not necessarily true. Again, testosterone does influence the bone structure making it more robust. However, the brow-ridge-barometer sites like sluthate use are extremely sketchy.

    Also, again, Asian peoples are not homogeneous so this can occur actually rather frequently in certain populations within Asia, while these traits can also appear very rarely within certain European populations.

    Brow ridges and other masculinised traits, however, are not always a 1:1 thing. (Cheekbones are considered desirable amongst both women and men, for different reason—test gives higher cheekbones to men, high cheekbones to women are a sign of reproductive maturity. High cheekbones also occur frequently within Asia.)

    I think you might be referring to the opposite of paeodmorphy/neoteny, which is gerontomorphy (like neanderthals). Mind you, all humans alive today are more neotenous than our hominin ancestors so it does not necessarily have to be exclusive to the feminine. Nor does gerontomorphy have to be exclusively masculine—for example, long legs are considered a gerontomorphic trait and desirable in women. But, all in all, H. Sapiens sapiens are so neotenous that we’re basically the toy poodles of hominids. Traits of the “Nordic” race during the time of Weimar/Nazi Germany, were promoted as simultaneously masculine and neotenous, so interpretations of objectivity amongst the HBD crowd and old world anthrpologists have been skechy, due to the political agenda as well as the lack of technology.

    Look at Maoist propaganda, and you will see those traits everywhere, yet the target audience had probably never seen a Caucasian face before.

    Maoist propaganda posters do not appear to exhibit unusually Eurocentric ideals—therefore the link to simply “Caucasians” is weak. Rather, it would be more likely that the intention was to depict a strong and weathered proletariat.

    permalinksaveparentgive gold
    [–]diadegloria 3 points 1 month ago
    Many of these traits are certainly universal. There IS such a thing as a race that trends towards “disadvantageous” features. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_attractiveness#Male_physical_attractiveness

    Many of the things listed, both male and female, have changed several times in history depending on factors like environment. Also, there is no concrete evidence that any particular “race” as defined by broader society tends towards disadvantageous traits for the particular environment they thrived in. This line of thinking implies certain nebulously defined groups are eugenic, whereas other nebulously defined groups are dysgenic (see: hutus and tutsis). That implication has not been proven in any meaningful way.

    For example, tell me honestly that fatter women are just as attractive as skinny women. What if I told you that 4/5 black women were overweight and that blacks are genetically predisposed to be overweight?


    “Fat” “Skinny” Human adaptability

    Also, the continent of Africa is absurdly diverse. The nature/environment of the land is extraordinarily well-preserved compared to other places like Eurasia. Especially compared to Western Europe, which historically went on a megafauna-killing spree. Because of this, you have all kinds of clinal variations within Africa. From desert-adapted people in the North, to the rainforest-adapted Twa pygmies, to the high-altitude adaptations you find amongst Ethiopian peoples. “Black”, like other races, is not monolithic. Certain West Africans, for example, are type II (fast twitch) muscle fiber dominant. This produces a bit of an edge in sprinting (which is also nurtured by culture). In contrast, certain East African populations exhibit Type I (slow twitch) dominance, producing quite a few long distance runners (also nurtured by culture).

    It appears that you were attempting to link obesity to blackness, particularly with your 4/5 figure (which is a little absurd considering the black population worldwide). However, the paper you yourself linked stressed that

    “I would love to stress that this paper is really** just a start** or a foundation for understanding the role of genetic variation in obesity. We expect obesity to be influenced by hundreds, if not thousands of genes and many, many environmental factors. While some genetic variants are likely to increase or decrease weight in all people, most are likely to influence weight in specific people depending on their genetic background and their unique environmental history including diet, toxic metal exposure, exercise, etc. We will not fully understand the genetics of obesity until we can fully investigate these context-dependent genetic effects.”

    ~Prof Jason Moore from Dartmouth College

    This means that these things are EXTREMELY sensitive and not a linear thing at all. Many of these genetic variants are also not “fat genes”, but sensitivity genes. Some genes that were linked as an advantage in running, also have this other effect as shown above of sensitivity to certain factors.

    For non-irregular biology, most of these things have risen for a reason. They are not necessarily universally dysgenic.

    TL;DR You’re fine, but don’t jump the gun because evo-devo biology was never meant to be simple and linear.

    I recommend this, from the Prussian at Skepticink

    Point #1.10 is worth looking into.

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    [–]diadegloria 3 points 1 month ago*
    Also, one addition:

    Edit: Ok, some of my generalizations about “genetic predisposition” are inaccurate and I took out the bit about certain more distinct facial features being viewed as more attractive. However my point is that there are inherent (genetic, cultural, historical) “disadvantages” to being Asian American that are completely unavoidable.

    Your edit is respectable, and your willingness to be objective is admirable. Otherwise, I agree with you that it Asian men get shafted for cultural and historical reasons. However, I would not go so far as to say they are genetically inherent, especially with the lack of solid evidence.

    So far, the genetic explanation appears to be a belief based on assigned stereotypes and internalisation of them. For example, many Chinese internalise rather fatalistic stereotypes about themselves and potential in sports. These people then take that and run with it, generalising other Asians to be like their own idea of themselves (despite the fact that Asia, or even Eastern Asia is clearly not homogeneous). Sometimes, this goes as far as to bring up a post hoc explanation when someone from their group does succeed.

    LETTER FROM ASIA; Racial ‘Handicaps’ and a Great Sprint Forward

    …But among Chinese, the proposition that genetic differences have made Asian athletes slower in sprinting than their American, African or European rivals is a widely accepted maxim, if an unproven one.

    The Communist Party apparently thinks so, too. At the midway point of the Athens Games, with China in a surprisingly tight competition with the United States for the lead in gold medals, the party’s chief newspaper, People’s Daily, cautioned that track and field events were about to begin.

    While Chinese are ”suited” to sports like Ping-Pong, badminton and gymnastics that require agility and technique, the newspaper noted, purely athletic events are different. Chinese had ”congenital shortcomings” and ”genetic differences” that created disadvantages against black and white athletes.

    And this:

    Mr. Liu’s victory has not fully erased this ingrained belief. Chinese sports officials have explained his win, in part, by noting that hurdles also require technique, not just raw speed, an observation that invokes another, more positive, stereotype — that Chinese are disciplined and smart. His coach has been credited with developing special training methods to overcome any racial deficiencies.


    Li Aidong, a researcher with the China Institute of Sports Science, said coaches believe Chinese athletes could be successful in long jumping, high jumping and speed walking. They have already had some success in distance running, including a gold in the women’s 10,000 meters this year.

    There are no credible scientific studies to underpin the idea that Asians are physically inferior to other athletes in sprinting. Nor are Chinese alone in succumbing to ingrained racial beliefs: the Olympics victory of the white American sprinter Jeremy Wariner in the 400-meter dash startled a fair number of people in the United States. He was the first white winner of the event in 40 years.

    But Ms. Li said she doubted China could compete in events like pure sprinting.

    ”Short distance races are physically intensive,” Ms. Li said. ”They require a lot of physical abilities, like speed and sudden strength. Although we have no research data, it has been an open fact that Asians and Chinese are disadvantaged when compared to Europeans and Americans.”

    TL;DR do not internalise the HBD delusion. The struggle Asian men face, rather than being biological in nature, is socially engineered.

    It is good that you try to be objective, but objective doesn’t have to be a trade-off thing.

    The best thing to do, is to be skeptical, alert, and to have a healthy dose of pride.

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    [–]pork_orc 0 points 1 month ago*
    Certain West Africans, for example, are type II (fast twitch) muscle fiber dominant. This produces a bit of an edge in sprinting (which is also nurtured by culture). In contrast, certain East African populations exhibit Type I (slow twitch) dominance, producing quite a few long distance runners (also nurtured by culture).

    • Good comments!

      “But, all in all, H. Sapiens sapiens are so neotenous that we’re basically the toy poodles of hominids.”

      That was immensely amusing.

      “Traits of the “Nordic” race during the time of Weimar/Nazi Germany, were promoted as simultaneously masculine and neotenous, so interpretations of objectivity amongst the HBD crowd and old world anthrpologists have been skechy, due to the political agenda as well as the lack of technology.”

      I’ve come across that kind of thing a number of times in my studies. How a particular population is perceived at one time can be completely opposite as how it is perceived later. Yet in both cases pseudo-scientific explanations are given. It’s easy to speculate based on bigoted assumptions, and the weaker the evidence the more powerful speculation can act as rhetoric.

  44. Take a look at the radiolab podcast covering the same topic. It turns out they make great long distance runners because they all come from one small tribe where men traditionally had to be incredibly tolerant of pain otherwise they would never “become a man”.

    Are you referring to this? Or maybe this?

    It wasn’t just about living in a high altitude environment and being poor, their edge was their culture.

    I never said that it was due to high altitudes or poverty. At no point did I correlate the two. My point was about certain adaptations and how they are sometimes double-edged.

    East Africans also have mostly fast twitch fibers actually

    “mostly” The model is actually more compliacted than white/red fibers. It is true that it is not as simple as fast twitch=explosive and slow twitch=distance. In fact, there’s more than one type of fast-twitch fiber. A “subtype”, if you will. (However, I’m glad you helped clarify as it was overly simplified in my previous post for the purpose of showing that genes are not linear and be-all-end-all, especially when it comes to hings like obesity.)

    They actually have an advantage with both slow and fast twitch fibers, even utilising fast twitch fibers for endurance. Especially considering that fast twitch fibers are often used in different ways. Again, this is both nature and nurture as I already stated. In the case of East Africans, theirs possess oxidative qualities in comparison to other populations. This gives a slight advantage in distance running, but mind you the entire point of my post was to produce a balanced (and simplified) counterpoint to the idea of biological fatalism. I have to stress again, these factors are never black and white and often overblown and taken into hyperbole, as seen by HBD-type folks around the thread.

    A lot of people have trouble putting variations into perspective. Some people make a big deal about “East Asians having twenty percent more neanderthal DNA than Europeans.” However, it’s not that drastic at all. The normal variation of people would be around 1-4%. If your European has 1 percent, the East Asian that has twenty percent more will have 1.2%.

    Differences do exist across groups, but it is fairly well-documented at how slight these things are. That’s why it would end up being absurd if we divided the census up by genotype. It would literally be splitting hairs.

    My point was also well after I had already covered extensively how advantages are often slight, but do happen, and re: obesity can sometimes be double-edged. This is also nurtured by culture.

    The vast majority of popular “science” writing is garbage, like this: http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonentine/2012/08/12/the-dna-olympics-jamaicans-win-sprinting-genetic-lottery-and-why-we-should-all-care/

    Especially since it categorises based on nebulous social constructs like “Asian”, “white”, “black”—not taking into clinal variation and genetic drift and how populations can be looked at as “strains”, so “race science” is basically too nebulous to be legitimate.

    This is increased tenfold considering how often times there is more variation between groups than out of them, where those groups are defined in terms of linguistic/geographic/cultural boundaries. See: Lewontin

    Since humans are so similar to each other in the end, despite variations absolutely existing due to cline and drift, culture and environment (which actually includes poverty) are often more meaningful factors. And even regions within Africa in and of themselves are diverse.

    I think people in general need to put in the work to try to accomplish whatever before they say they suck at something due to genetics.

    That’s what I was going for, re; the People’s Daily’s take on genetics in China, which is basically bullshit.

    TL;DR; Several factors, people split hairs and hyperbolise them.

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    [–]diadegloria 1 point 1 month ago*
    As a sidenote, here are some more problems with bio-determinism. It also completely ignores this and runs with it.

    HBD folks like Peter Frost (a known hack) lack this nuance, and end up making arguments similar to an autistic child. Other than Lewontin, I would also recommend one of my favourite biologists, Stephen Jay Gould.

    The thing with biology is that due to the capitalistic nature of funding, whoever can market their idea the best receives more grants and publicity. Steven Pinker, for example, is a psychologist and a popular science author. Many of his claims are unfounded and overly speculative (states untested theories as facts). It works in debate as well, taking Michael Crichton (author of Jurassic Park) as an example. His arguments were often false, but he was a better marketer.

    Another thing worth looking into is the field of epigenetics. This is also relevant to my broader point.

    This paper is a good introductory point, as well as this, and this to give a clearer picture.

    On a broader level, these also give an introductory insight; http://www.niehs.nih.gov/health/topics/science/gene-env/ http://www.genesinlife.org/genes-your-health/how-do-your-genes-and-environment-interact http://www.nchpeg.org/bssr/index.php?option=com_k2&view=itemlist&task=category&id=28:gene-environment-interaction&Itemid=129 http://www.ashg.org/pdf/CDC%20Gene-Environment%20Interaction%20Fact%20Sheet.pdf

    This one is relevant to a pervious point:

    Genes can contribute to risk or they can be protective

    In some cases, an individual gene may only contribute a small risk to a particular disease, but when certain genes interact — together or with specific environmental conditions — the risk may be much larger. Other genes may be protective, and when they interact with the right gene(s) or environmental factor(s) they may reduce a person’s risk of certain diseases.

    • I was happy to see someone mention epigenetics. It’s amazing how few people are aware of this. Research on it has been going on for quite a while, but it takes a long time for such challenging data to infiltrate the mainstream mind.

  45. To be fair, there are Asian countries with pronounced shorter height averages (Vietnam, Philippines, North Korea etc), but these figures are the result of war, malnourishment, protein deficiencies, economic disparities and so on. At the other end there are also tall Asians (northern Chinese, S. Koreans) who have benefited from traditionally higher caloric diets and economic prosperity – for example look at wheat production concentration in East Asia; it’s solely concentrated in Shandong and the surrounding regions.

    My problem with the people who brag about their height when they’re in Asia is the fact that they’re literally gloating at the fact that they’ve enjoyed a healthy childhood free of disease, and that they ignore the massive height range of different Asian ethnicities, which can range from an average of 5’10 in men from Shandong to 5’2 from people in rural Indonesia, by generalising “Asians are short and always will be hahaha!”.

    Asian’s aren’t inherently short but a lot of people are myopic and refuse to take environmental factors in to concern – for them it has to be genetic or nothing else. It’s true that heritability plays a lot in determining height (around 70-80%), but that remaining 20% on environmental factors is incredibly significant and is what will lead to generational increase of height. For example, I’m certain many Asian-American guys are significantly taller than their fathers and most AA females are probably closer to their father’s height than their mother’s. Tall Asian-Americans are hardly an oddity now a days and to think that if an Asian is tall, it has to be an outlier is nothing but stubbornness.. just off the top of my head, look at J Lin, Godfrey Gao, Roger Fan, this Chinese-American guy I watch on twitch.tv. It’s why the use of CMH (corrected midparental height) in calculating estimated final growth height of children is often problematic in immigrant populations.

    Did you know the average height of the European male was barely 5’5-5’6 pre WW2? The mean secular height increase (i.e how fast a population is growing) in the majority of European countries have slowed dramatically in the last 2 decades as the majority of western countries became economically advanced and have reached a certain point of development. Whilst for most Asian countries mean secular height increase has risen dramatically (see Luo et al or Su et al) and is still increasing, even for northern China and S. Korea. All Asian countries are catching up in terms of economic growth, better diet etc. In the next few decades the average height of Chinese and (South) Korean people will be the same as the average European country, and a few more for less developed Asian countries. The reason why many European countries have taller height averages now is simply because they got the chance to experience economic development sooner.

    Japan is a unique case as they have a very different diet and ethos with how they view food from any other country in the world, so it wouldn’t be fair to make inferences about all Asians based on them alone.*

    Japan has the highest life expectancy in the world so it’s a bit of a trade off.

    • “My problem with the people who brag about their height when they’re in Asia is the fact that they’re literally gloating at the fact that they’ve enjoyed a healthy childhood free of disease”

      A great point!

      “In the next few decades the average height of Chinese and (South) Korean people will be the same as the average European country, and a few more for less developed Asian countries. The reason why many European countries have taller height averages now is simply because they got the chance to experience economic development sooner.”

      The same goes for IQ differences. For the poor, environmental factors are the strongest determinant of IQ. For the wealthy, environmental factors have been improved to such an extent that further improvements at present are unlikely. This is why the racial IQ gap is shrinking, because ultimately it is a wealth and health gap.

    • Did you look at the comments section? I left a couple of comments there back in January of this year. I didn’t write anything in detail about race realism. There didn’t seem to be any point, but I felt the need to point out a few obvious things.

      The problem I have with such articles and the comments discussions that follow is this. They ignore so much in order to make their arguments seem reasonable. Typically, they exclude more data than they include. It’s typical cherrypicking and they never acknowledge this.

      You rarely if ever see them mention epigenetics, parasite load, stereotype threat, etc. All of this is some of the best scientific research we have about racial disparities. Their claims of being scientifically objective are superficial and facile.

  46. La vie est belle

    “To me, discrediting an well established measurement system like this is an even bigger stretch. In order to convince me what you said makes sense, you need to show me research results disproving correlation between IQ score and personal achievements, so far I don’t know any of that exists.

    In fact, mild or strong, the positive effect of IQ score on personal achievement is generally accepted by the scientific community. It just might not be as simple as a linear correlation as a lot of people thought.

    Even the most radical thinkers of our time like Malcolm Gladwell has to admit the validity of IQ testing before they making their points. In his book “Outliers”, Gladwell claims based on his study, there is likely a baseline IQ score for excellence at around 120 which means in order to achieve excellence in a lot of areas in life, your minimum hardware requirement is most likely to be around a 120 of intelligence. Any case below that is extremely rare. However, above that, the difference is not that much, a lot of other factors kick in including mentorship and social environment. Just like for basketball, a height of 6’7 or 6’5 might not matter that much. But above or below 6′ could be a huge difference.”

    • It seems a pointless debate.

      I haven’t met many people who claim that IQ is entirely meaningless. Most critics simply think it is a more complex issue. They think that it doesn’t measure all forms of intelligence, cognitive ability, and talent, much less untapped potential. Or they think that the interpretations of the data is less clear than the IQ fetishists would prefer to admit.

      Correlations, as is always repeated, aren’t (necessarily) causations. People with low IQ are less successful. True, but so are many other things. People who are poor, oppressed, biased against, police profiled, attend underfunded schools, malnutritioned, experience high toxic exposure, etc also are less successful.

      But we are essentially defining success in our society by the very things by which we are measuring success. Those in power who control the conditions that determine who succeeds do so to maintain the status quo. Still, none of that proves anything inherent about human nature.

      In a low inequality and high mobility society with a strong social safety net, universal healthcare, and high quality education for all, being born poor likely would have little correlation to such things as IQ and success. And in that case, even the correlation between IQ and success would be less meaningful.

    • If the genetic determinists were right, this would never happen:

      “The embryos also were riddled with unexpected, or “off-target,” changes to their DNA, the researchers reported.”

      Ideologues like HBDers and race realists have such simplistic notions of genetics. They think that a single gene will have significant influence on a single trait such as average IQs across all populations. The reality is that othere are probably at least hundreds of genes that simultaneously effect cognitive functioning and a million other things, mostly unpredictable. It’s not just that we don’t know how genes act on their own, for we also don’t know genes interact with other genes, much less everything else, from epigenetics to environment.

      • Lol, this guy


        The Screenshotted blogger didn’t eve say anything about iq. He was saying that Russia is in shambles compared to the west because the Bolshevik revolution made all the smart people leave, so the current people in Russia are descenders of peasants and stupids. And the Screenshotted blogger is a “liberal” who lives now in the Czech Republic. He seems to be a pro-western russian rather than a Putin nationalist or nationalist.

        Sputnik and pogrom seems to be a russian nationalist page. They responded that Russia has a higher average iq than Lithuania, which is more developed. Also, Russia has an equal iq with Ireland, Scotland, France, yet these nations are better off. Therefore it’s not intelligence(lack of) holding Russia back.

        So in a way the twitter guy is right in this case (the liberal guy pulling the intellgence card) but not really. Though both sides may conflate iq and intellgence but it’s not a solid assumption yet

  47. This: Your kids get different reactions because no one’s jealous of your younger daughter’s condition. Simple as that.

    “Gifted” is not a value neutral term. Your older, precocious kid has a high iq and a bunch of individual quirks, good and bad, that aren’t an automatic package deal with her iq.

    Your kids are equally valuable, but one’s label is more desirable than the other’s. Being gifted, or “blessed by god” is more desirable in society than the direct opposite.

    Your kids aren’t just different but equal. Or else why would would you use a value-laden, practically religious term like “gifted” aka blessed by God/Genetics? Does that mean your other kid, and “average” kids, are ungifted, anti-gifted, giftless, or something like that?

    Why not just say you have two kids with problems? And why don’t you admit that one of your kids has far worse problems than the other? If you were forced to choose the same condition for both of your children, I think you know and everyone knows that you would choose them to be both ‘gifted’. If it wasn’t desirable, it wouldn’t be a gift and she wouldn’t call her daughter gifted.

    Your high iq kid’s problems are another issue. But obviously it is much easier to deal with problems with high intelligence than with low. My kind of learning disability, for example, would have been an impossible situation for a low IQ kid. It wouldn’t even be comparable. Being low IQ and high IQ aren’t mere differences. A child with immense talents, potentials, and precocious cognitive development isn’t equivalent to a child who will struggle to learn the most basic activities, even when both have other problems as well.

    • He claims he’s a genius with an IQ to match but he is a deluded, racist, sexist guy with paedophilia tendencies it seems. Anyone in the States phoned the cops?

      • On one post, he says He likes to drive by the local school when it lets out, though he wears sunglasses so the it’s not obvious he’s looking at the kids. wut


        He says he’s a counselor in his day job, though. I still wonder if that’s true, LOL

  48. He totalyl isnt raycess


    • I’m not even sure he is a racist. He certainly is an egomaniac and a troll. It is hard to know if he actually believes anything he writes or is simply seeking attention. There is no consistency in his proclaimed views. He seems to like to argue particular views just for the fun of it. It’s some kind of game to him.

  49. As I recall, J lives in Maine (the whitest state in America) and is married to a white yankee

    • I wonder, how many racists and bigots behind race realism and genetic determinism (and they do) mention or R even aware that the top violent and brutal oppressors in American society are Whites of other Whites? Racism is how rich Whites keep poor Whites in line and accept the injustices against them, just because they are slightly less than the injustices against minorities.

    • I’m tired of American imperialism. It’s such a waste of resources, both financial and human. I just don’t get the point of it all. It’s just power for the sake of power, as far as I can tell. Some people seem to get off on the ability to wantonly invade countries, just because they can. It’s severely fucked up, sociopathy magnified to global proportions. I hope humans one day mature out of this self-destructive phase.

    • I agree about safety. But I don’t worry too much about safety. I worked nights for many years and walked downtown. I worried more about drunk white frat guys than roving gangs of black ‘thugs’. Not that I worried about either to any great extent. I don’t want to live in fear, and I see no reason to fear someone simply because they are different than me. If someone means me no harm, then they are my kind of people. And I don’t assume anyone means me harm, until I have reason to think otherwise.

  50. Whites who say this kind of stuff never seem to develop empathy for minorities in white areas, lol. If I switched the races here she’d lose her mind I bet.

    Would I send my asian kid to a school over90% white???!!! Oh wait, that’s my and many minorities’ experiences :p

    “In 2012, white students make up 22% and asians students make up 75% of Monta Vista High School. This is exactly how University High and Northwood High is going to like in 2020. As a parent, I personally would think it is unhealthy to send my children to school in that type of environment. If you were a white family living in Irvine, would you want to send your kids to a high where asian students made up 75% of the school? I’ll be blunt.. my answer is “NO” “

    • I went to schools that were about half black. It never bothered me. I doubt it would have bothered me if I had been surrounded by a majority of blacks. I was able to adapt just fine moving from the majority white Midwest to the Deep South. It was a slight culture shock initially, but I quickly got over it and then it was normal.

      In high school, I worked with mostly non-whites in a McDonald’s. It didn’t seem like any big deal. I realize now it was not considered normal for a middle class white kid to work in a fast food restaurant, but at the time I was too clueless. My Midwestern upbringing did create a certain kind of colorblindness, because I never fully understood the Southern racial order.

  51. I really sympathize with this poster : https://www.reddit.com/r/blackladies/comments/3gwfx7/i_think_recent_shifts_in_reddits_tone_has_made_me/

    I think one of the things holding Asians back is the lack of a strong identity and self hate/white worship. I respect and am jealous of blacks sometimes, because it just seems like they have more pride in who they are. They have an aa identity and enough solidarity to accomplish things, they standup for themselves. Asians don’t and we are obsessed with assimilating into a system that will not accept us and grovel for white approval. How ca you advance asian rights when Asians themselves are “too many Asians here” and basically throw each other other the bus to climb the ladder? We always are trying to one up each other and throw each other under the bus for some extra scraps in society. Fuck that

    • That reddit post is one of the sadder things I’ve read in a while. There is a danger to thinking that what one sees on the internet is representative of normal life. Commenters online are a highly self-selected group.

      I’m sure there are better places to spend one’s time than on reddit. I’ve been on many forums where racism was unheard of and wouldn’t have been tolerated for a second. This is particularly true of the INFP and integral forums I’ve belonged to.

      People should choose wisely how they spend their time. What you focus upon will determine your experience of life and your perception of others. I know all too well how easy it is to get drawn in by all the haters, bigots, malcontents, contrarians, and trolls.

  52. Something happened to my loved one recently that had me just fuming. This is about my half-brown girlfriend when she was vacationing in South Korea. Though for the most part she had fun, she can’t help but feel disappointed of how some natives treated her. She actually got SPAT on in one occasion, and that person did it out of malice. Maybe that person is just a douche and it has nothing to do with her being a dark skinned Indian. Well, her white friend definitely got treated a lot better. She also told me how some folks want their daughters to marry a white westerner so they can have half-white babies. Talk about white fetishism.
    What does this have to do with Asian Americans? Well, I think a lot of Asians / Asian Americans want to be part of the white establishment. We complain about how bad white supremacy is, or how white people need to check their privilege, or how horrible yellow fever is. Well, for so much disdain towards the “big bad whitey”, it would make sense that there would be some deterrence in how us AA wants to be part of their social circle. After all, who wants to be part of a group that oppresses us? But that would be racist thought right. It’s wrong to lump every single white person together, because it’s just as wrong to do the same to a POC. But yet, how many times have we heard “I don’t date black women/men, Asian or brown men” because of some negative stereotypes? I certainly have yet to hear “I wouldn’t date a white person because they are privilege as fuck!” I think most people would agree with me that we live in a society that puts white people on top, but what sucks is how much Asian Americans subconsciously buy into this white supremacy.
    We talk about solidarity amongst POC but I just don’t see that happening. But what I do see if how a lot of Asian Americans want to be feel accepted and be part of this establishment that has the white patriarch on top, you know, the one that you all complain endlessly about.
    No, this post is not to tell you to hate white people. As a matter of fact, I want you all to stop putting all the blames on the white patriarch and instead focus on ourselves, of how we can stop putting white people on a pedestal. And what we can do to get rid of that inferiority complex / self -hate.

  53. It’s all that Cold War propaganda that has filtered to the present day, creating a cognitive dissonance that these people react to in the form of petty racism.
    Back in the day China was the enemy, and Western media generally depicted the country as 1) oppressive, and 2) poor. So people in the West were made to feel like Chinese on the mainland as pitiful individuals that were worse than them. No matter how much your life sucked, you can always say “well at least I’m not in Communist China, haha”. People always thought of them as needing the wise guidance of the West to pull themselves out of their bad situation. All the political dissidents who “fled” China back then also fed into this stereotype that all mainland Chinese are confused, oppressed beings just waiting for the West to liberate them.
    But the Chinese people in the present day are rich, confident and outgoing. They have build up a prosperous society on their own without much input from the West. The previous stereotypes of the Chinese as a bunch of desperate, poor peasants are just not true anymore. This was a huge blow to the superiority complex of a lot of people in the West, especially when they see these supposedly “inferior” people having more money than THEM, drive better cars than THEM and generally have a better life than THEM. So they come up with excuses to offset this cognitive dissonance; “oh, they just cheated their way into money”, “they must be the children of corrupt officials” (while a lot of them simply come from families that put a lot of effort into making it rich), and, of course, petty racist remarks about them being new money and “well they may have money, but they don’t have MANNERS” (whatever that means; the person making the prejudiced statement has the least manners of them all, one would think).
    All of these feelings come from a sense of fear and jealousy. A fear that the Western way of life isn’t delivering on it’s promise of a good life. The jealousy of looking at someone with a better life than them- but this type of jealousy is especially biting, as it comes at the result of looking at someone who was previously thought to be worse than themselves leapfrog over them. This self hatred of the masses finds release in outward and petty racist remarks about their target. The casual racism against the Mainlanders you see in the media come from a position of fear, and it exposes the patheticness of the individuals that espoused them.
    How do you combat this phenomenon? Just live your life well, earn more money than them, have fun, and call them up on their pettiness if you feel like it. Ignore the haters, and acquire a happy, rich, and productive life. That way you’ll gain more respect in the long run from people who matter. Let those who seethe in a sea of self pity and hatred drown in their self created, personal hells. You are, at the end of the day, better than this. We are ALL better, than this.

    • It’s a slow but steady trend downwards. This is particularly clear when the older generations are included, specifically the Silents. From Silents to Millennials, it was a massive drop of racism. That fits the Strauss and Howe generational model, which follows a 4 generational cycle. Based on this, one might predict another major generational drop in racism with the generation following Millennials. That would make sense, as that is the first minority-majority generation, although they are still young at this point and so it is hard to know their opinions.

  54. lol

    The largest minority in North America would probably be Hispanics, then Africans. Neither are on our side. In fact, Mexicans have a history of siding with whites against Asians, as shown in the Watsonville anti-Filipino riots, which escalated into a shootout between armed whites and armed Filipino farmworkers. Mexican farmworkers, instead showing solidarity with fellow oppressed laborers, picked up their rifles and joined with their white masters instead (I guess they favored the Spaniard rapist side of their heritage more than the native “indio” side). Needless to say, the Filipinos were overwhelmed. As for blacks, well, thats already been discussed. I did not say all this just to be a negative neener nanner. I just want to put it out there so there is a healthy dose of skepticism and caution regarding other minority groups. Should Hispanics become the dominant demographic, we still need to have our game face on. I’m saying this as a man who likes taco poon the most.
    I truly understand that Asian men from Asia most likely China will have to take measures to make their culture and economic export enough to rival western societies or even break it.
    They will have to yes, but do they even realize that they have to? My consumption of Asian media (movies, dramas, some news) shows me that Asian men in Asia are still ignorant of the racial-sexual politics, nor the benefits of controlling cultural “soft power” versus the detriment of not controlling it. FOB dudes I have spoken to back in school days are pretty ignorant of the concepts discussed here and their implications. And it’s not because they are idiots or something, it’s because they never had to face these things head on (until they live in the West long-term). China, while making strides economically and militarily, is still very lacking in PR and self-marketing. They have trouble defending military action in their own backyard, while America can have hundreds of bases around the world and still claim benevolence. I believe the subpar PR/marketing is cultural to Asia (modesty as virtue, depth>perception, etc.) Just as we speak of a movement of Asian men in the west, it would take another cultural movement in Asia to raise awareness to the importance of cultural dominance, and to convince the men in power that they have a vested interest in exporting their culture on masculine terms. Remember, these men are already very very comfortable with where they are, either swimming in Asian pussy or content with how virtuously chaste they are , so it is gonna take one heck of a sweetass carrot to get them to lift a finger towards something as uncharted as cultural dominance over round-eyed people.
    permalinksaveparentreportgive goldreply
    [–]SteelersRock 1 point 3 months ago
    Mexicans value their Spanish side more than their indigenous side. Indigenous people are pressured to adopt the mestizo culture and speak Spanish.
    permalinksaveparentreportgive goldreply
    [–]Igneous88 1 point 3 months ago
    Which makes them more in danger of ultimately siding with whites when push comes to shove. Their internal hierarchy is blanco>mestizo>indio. In Mexico, the paler variety of Mexicans hold power. You can say the same for the rest of Latin-America as well. There is indeed a form of self-hatred within their community regarding their indigenous side that they will rarely verbalize, but can be observed.
    permalinksaveparentreportgive goldreply
    [–]SteelersRock 1 point 3 months ago
    Light skinned mestizos and whites rule Mexico. The indigenous particularly in the South of the country have it hard. They love their Spanish daddas
    permalinksaveparentreportgive goldreply

    • I came across some interesting data.


      It shows the present percentages of each standard race/ethnicity. Then it shows the predicted percentage in about a half century. Going by this, Asians might quickly catch up with blacks in terms of the proportion of the population.

      That would be an interesting dynamic. Asians and blacks might see each other as more of competing groups, even while Hispanics take the lead as the largest minority. As divide and conquer is applied to Asians and blacks, Hispanics very well could team up with whites to create a new majority.

  55. Blacks and Jewish/Irish/Italian/(insert every other past disenfranchised white ethnic group) are certainly polars. Asians can’t follow the latter because they’re not white, they’re strategies won’t work for them. I have no idea on the specifics of a strategy, but whatever it is, it can incorporate seeking economic success and also doing more to make a splash as in not try to completely assimilate, so carving your own spaces and metrics of success will probably get what you want. It seems like an Asian person (well anyone really) who knows what they’re about and is not afraid to be what they are will stand out much more than someone who hides out in the crowds. You want to stand out and give the finger to the establishment, they hate it much more when you’re being successful without their help.

    • No white group was white until it was. White is a fictional category. It can be bent to fit any population that isn’t black. That is all ‘white’ ultimately means. The racial division in America isn’t between whites and all others, but between blacks and all others. Anyone and everyone besides blacks can be assimilated into whiteness, even though some take longer to be assimilated than others. Trust me, if dark-skinned and dark-haired Southern Italians, Hispanics, and others can be assimilated, Asians can as well. Asians are already halfway to whiteness.

  56. That’s why I feel black history and culture is incredibly important to understand. Black counterculture evolved to give blacks an identity that is distinctly nonwhite. Black names are nonwhite. Black music is nonwhite. Black Islam is nonwhite. Black language is nonwhite. None of that shit is by accident.
    What do you do when the white music industry doesn’t let you in? Asians – Learn to play the violin and piano harder! Get into Julliard! One day they will see our greatness!!! Blacks – Fuck you i’ll make my own genre of music
    What do you do when your political representation is shit? Asians – Study harder! Become Lawyer! One day they will fear us!!! Blacks – March the fuck on Washington
    Now obviously there’s a bunch of problems with the black community, but we shouldn’t use that as an excuse to ignore all of the strategies they’ve developed through 400 years of subjugation. They, like us, can never hide in plain sight.

    • Actually, American black culture was pretty much wiped from existence. All that blacks had was what was left over from slavery and that wasn’t much.

      Their strength was not a cultural independence, as their culture wasn’t really any different than that of poor white Southerners. Rather, their strength was concentrated numbers, in their finding themselves economically segregated and trapped in their own communities. Blacks didn’t simply choose solidarity, but were forced into it by a racism so systematic that the only thing that comes close to comparison is the experience of Native Americans. Blacks had the strength of desperation in having no escape, either fight or submit to endless suffering.

      Asian-Americans, despite the problems and oppressions they’ve known in America, will never know that kind oppression caused by slavery and Jim Crow. Nor will they know experience of being targeted by the New Jim Crow of the drug wars and mass incarceration.

      Asian-Americans remain divided partly because they maintain some of their original ethnic identities: Chinese, Japanese, etc. That is what makes them different from American blacks who had their ethnic identities ripped from them. They were once separate ethnic groups with different traditions, religions, and languages, but then were forcibly made into ‘blacks’ by slavery. There is no equivalent force that would so tragically and quickly obliterate Asian-American’s ethnic identities.

      The path of Asian-Americans will almost inevitably follow the pattern of European ethnics. It will be a slow assimilation, for the most part. However, it could be hurried a bit as happened with German-Americans, if a major global war happens involving some Asian countries as an enemy of the US. Every new wave of ethnic immigrants thought they were different than previous waves, and each time they were proven to lead to the same result. White Americans will assimilate you like the Borg, like it or not. Resistance is fucking useless!

      Still, I wouldn’t mind seeing Asian-Americans put up a good fight. It would be nice to see some ethnic groups, besides Native Americans and the Amish, maintain their traditional ethnic identities. Few groups have survived the American Melting Pot. I have my doubts that Asian-Americans will be different, considering how popular reactionary politics are among so many Asian-Americans. It seems to me that many Asian-Americans would love to be assimilated. I don’t know if that is necessarily a bad thing, if it is chosen freely, but I’m not sure such things are ever really chosen freely.

      Even though I wish American could embrace diversity, that doesn’t seem to be what America is about, at least not when it comes to the racial order.

  57. Yes, and the AM community is no exception

    of course most people won’t care about other’s oppression, just their own. Everybody knows about black women’s oppression and black oppression but nothing is being done about it. Asian oppression is sweep under the rug, which is blatantly obvious because everybody is so used to asian shutting up and not complaining, and when they do complain, people think it will only last a few seconds then they will go back to work. In america, everything is so simple. masculinity goes like this most to least blacks>whites>asians. masculinity refers to both the men and women. also smartness goes like this asians>whites>blacks. but white is always in the middle, the middleman controlling everything. oppress minorities and make them face against each other, and take it one step and make the minorities women face off against their own men. just like how they divided up africa into blocks of countries with borders that are complete straight lines and divide asian countries into competing against each other.

  58. Not she ey but I thought of j reading this

    You know, I used to get upset over the seeming obliviousness of asinine slacktivists too, but I eventually realized that perception is reality for most folks.

    Click to access 2950993%5B1%5D.pdf

    Even when parties have the same information, they will come to different conclusions about what a fair settlement would be and base their predictions of judicial behavior on their own views of what’s fair.
    Like most disputes in the real world, the existence of multiple arguments, pro and con, for each side introduces the possibility of self-serving bias by allowing subjects to focus on, or weight, differentially arguments favoring themselves over the other party.
    This hullabaloo over Eddie Huang is a great litmus test for Asian Americans. If you’re on Eddie’s side, it shows me that fundamentally, you root for Asian Americans and support our cause, so you’re willing to forgive minor mistakes in rhetoric because the overall message is correct.
    If you’re on the side of these wannabe pseudo-feminists and social injustice warriors, it shows me you’ve internalized the prejudice of mainstream Western society towards Asians, and regardless of your protests to the contrary, you actually root for the other side like some dipshitted Uncle Chan. There’s no arguing with people like this because they’ve already mentally separated themselves from their identity as Asian Americans….. Just troll the shit outta them for your own amusement, you ain’t gonna change anyone’s mind.

  59. I have always admired how black people rise up together to take a stand on injustices that they face. No matter if the person they’re taking a stand for is in the wrong or right, they’ll back them regardless. That’s something to admire. And I mean that.
    Now of course, we should remember how little white America respects black people. These riots, while a display of solidarity and force, end up being completely ineffective.
    What to take from all this? At the very least we should all rise together and make some fucking noise when an Asian-American or Asian citizen in the United States faces crime.

    • Black activism has always been born out of poverty, oppression, and desperation. Their backs were against the wall and so they lashed out. No one should desire that kind of solidarity created by lack of opportunity to do or be anything else, even as one admires the moral outrage that fuels it.

      Blacks or any other minority group can’t force whites to change. Either whites will somehow come to terms with their own issues or else white supremacy will grow less irrelevant over time as the white majority shrinks. This is a point Ta-Nehisi Coates makes in his recent book, Between the World and Me.

      Blacks have always been playing a waiting game, their faith being built on endurance and patience, because they had no other choice. It was activism built on necessity of cold reality, not romanticism of noble ideals of solidarity and struggle. No one would willingly choose the strategies that blacks have been forced to take up. As MLK explained, “a riot is the language of the unheard.” Not just unheard, I would emphasize, but violently silenced for centuries.

      Asian-Americans simply haven’t had that kind of experience. That is why one doesn’t hear of them rioting. Asian-Americans do get heard, even by white reactionaries. Maybe it’s not how some Asian-Americans would prefer to get heard, but nonetheless it is a pathway to (grudging) inclusion not available to blacks.

  60. I agree with all of what’s being put here, and I’m going to add one more point. This is from a Chinese POV, but I hope there are similarities with other Asian countries.
    The fobs do NOT see Asians in the west as their own people. Simple as that. In their eyes, we’re already American, Canadian, whereas they are still the countrymen of their origins. A Chinese fob is Chinese, an ABC is American. Why would they care if something happens to us? We’re not their brethren.
    In Chinese, there is a clear distinction between the two. The Chinese are 中国人,aka People of China, while the Chinese everywhere are 华侨,aka Chinese ethnic. It should also be noted that Chinese people don’t really care about the nationality of someone, but instead the ethnicity. They will always view you as your ethnic.
    But ForgotMyNameGG! In that case, why don’t the Chinese view us ABC’s as their own? We’re all Chinese!
    This ties into a couple of factors. The one I will focus on, and in my opinion the most important, is that throughout modern Chinese history (20th century), overseas Chinese pretty much ditched China to form their own version of China in other areas. Especially during the formulaic years of the PRC, the overseas Chinese were not very sympathetic to China to say the least (Taiwan, Singapore, etc). This is of course due to the political stance of China, but I won’t go into the can of worms that is Maoism. As a result, the PRC was deeply distrustful of all overseas Chinese, until the reforms of Deng Xiaoping. Even now, Chinese people get shit-talked by westernized Chinese, HKers, Singaporeans, Taiwanese all the time. Doesn’t really help the situation.
    This is not to say that Chinese don’t care about overseas Chinese. After the Indonesian massacres of Chinese ethnics in the 90’s, a lot of Chinese citizens heavily criticized the government’s inability to take action against Indonesia. There was a strong sentiment of letting the indonesian Chinese return back home to China.
    Chinese people are fiercely nationalistic. So when they see overseas Chinese talking shit about them as well as China, the overseas Chinese are viewed as traitors who are no longer Chinese.
    To sum it all off, I will expand upon OP’s thoughts to make a concise list of why fobs don’t give a shit about us.
    We’re two different groups of people. We don’t care for them, they don’t care about us.
    Fobs view themselves as Chinese, not American, why would they care about not being fully accepted. That was never their goal.
    If they view themselves as Chinese, it means they’re part of the majority Han that is china even if they’re in the west. What minority experience? Their home is in China.
    Fobs nowadays are able to fuck off back to China if shit turns south. They are not poor refugees. This is a concept that we have to understand. This is the difference between us and them. Our home is in the west. Their home is the east.
    permalinksavereportgive goldreply
    [–]globetrottingazn 3 points an hour ago
    It’s sad/interesting to see how many overseas Chinese talk shit about their motherland and distance themselves from it, while in contrast, most overseas Koreans and Japanese abroad are extremely proud of their home countries and love associating themselves with them. Like I know someone who is half-white and half-Japanese, but this guy is extremely pro Japanese and loves Japanese culture, products, and cars, and makes an effort to befriend Japanese FOBS in America. And this guy is a Hapa. Meanwhile, I cringe everytime see a HKer posting on Facebook about the latest “offense” from the mainland.
    permalinksaveparentreportgive goldreply
    [–]easternenigma 1 point an hour ago
    On the other hand I know ABT who are super pro Taiwan. I think it has more to do with the perceived backward nature of certain “homeland” countries. Not all ethnic Chinese love mainland China for obvious reasons. It has nothing to do with trying to distance themselves from being ethnic Chinese but the fact that mainland China is CCP which they don’t like for political reasons.
    permalinksaveparentreportgive goldreply
    [–]disman2345 1 point 57 minutes ago
    Oversea Koreans and Japanese are looked down for being different from native Koreans or Japanese but they are still proud to be Koreans or Japanese.
    Chinese on the otherhand likes to be different, is it because Chinese is too common? Maybe because the old immigrants in KH and Singapore see the new chinese immigrants as a threat because being chinese, they know the competitiveness of chinese people thriving in foreign countries.
    HK is a city state if 7 million. It is a tiny bubble, do they really hate chinese people like ethnic chinese people by calling them locust? or is it just political? i know it is also economical and cultural because HK was separate from china for some time but the people who went there came from the mainland.
    permalinksaveparentreportgive goldreply
    [–]badlores 1 point 14 minutes ago
    That’s some sad fucking shit. In the western WM’s eyes we’re NEVER American.
    permalinksaveparentreportgive goldreply
    [–]easternenigma 1 point an hour ago
    Fobs nowadays are able to fuck off back to China if shit turns south. They are not poor refugees. This is a concept that we have to understand. This is the difference between us and them. Our home is in the west. Their home is the east.
    This is very limited thinking that a lot of asian-americans have when it comes to identity. It’s possible to straddle both worlds. It’s just that most AA don’t have the mindset to do so because of various issues within their own identity.
    The west is no more my permanent home than the east is. I choose where I want to be.
    permalinksaveparentreportgive goldreply
    [–]ForgotMyNameGG 3 points an hour ago
    The west is no more my permanent home than the east is. I choose where I want to be.
    That’s because I assume you have an understanding of Chinese cultural norms and a good grasp of the language.
    The truth is most AA do not. They don’t know shit about what goes in China, they speak subpar Chinese, and they would absolutely not fit in China because of their perceived western superiority complex.
    It’s just that most AA don’t have the mindset to do so because of various issues within their own identity.
    Agree. And I’m going to refute that mindset as well as identity issues are not small tasks to overcome. Straddling both worlds is not easy.
    permalinksaveparentreportgive goldreply
    [–]easternenigma 4 points an hour ago
    What it boils down to is that this is largely the fault of the asian-american cultural mindset and the upbringing of a lot of AA’s which can’t be blamed on “fobs” or original asian culture.
    A lot of asian-americans have wacked out identity issues and internalize racism. This is why we have these discussions to begin with.
    This is why asian-american culture needs a change in this mentality first and foremost. The fob/AA dichotomy is so silly because AA’s really have no reason to have a superiority complex..it’s just all internalized racism. The Uncle Chan thinking he’s on top when he’s in fact really way down on the bottom even compared with fobs who still retain the original culture.
    permalinksaveparentreportgive goldreply
    [–]ForgotMyNameGG 2 points an hour ago
    What it boils down to is that this is largely the fault of the asian-american cultural mindset and the upbringing of a lot of AA’s which can’t be blamed on “fobs” or original asian culture.
    Spot fucking on.
    permalinksaveparentreportgive goldreply

    • It reminds me of the immigrant experience of the British and other Europeans. The American colonists stopped thinking of themselves as English or whatever. Those back in England also stopped thinking of them as English. That was part of the conflict. Paine made that argument explicit and he was a born Englishman.

      Many Europeans to this day find it odd and irritating that Americans will claim to be ‘German’ or ‘Italian,’ simply because many generations ago one of their ancestors came from the Old World. Nationality trumps ethnicity. A large number of American soldiers fighting the German Nazis were German-Americans.

      Likewise, if the US ever goes to war against China, Chinese-Americans will play a key role as soldiers, interpreters, and spies. The Chinese nationals and their government have good reason to mistrust Chinese-Americans, as the Italian government mistrusted Italian-Americans who used their mafia ties in Italy to undermine Italy fascism from within.

  61. Not sure wu but the last paragraph made me think of J

    “As someone with a very beautiful FOB mother and a FOB father, who despite being highly accomplished, good looking, and tall, has complained about White men hitting on his (then-young) wife in front of him, I think we should cut FOBs a little slack. They don’t understand the culture here, and are trying to get a foothold in the West. They are coming from a century of degradation of Asian lands by Western powers: they are used to the West coming in and doing as they pleased in their native countries. In fact, they are coming to the West probably because their situation here is better than the situation in their native land, so there is probably some inferiority feelings going on there. We need to be strong examples to FOBs to show them that they needn’t take shit.
    A personal example that comes to mind is several African guys that I knew when I was growing up. These guys were FOBs and REFUSED to be identified with Black Americans. They absolutely did not want to be associated with mainstream Black culture or the perceptions of Blacks in this country. Now, after Obama is President, I run into some of these guys, and their attitude is totally changed. They get it now. They know they are all in the same boat together, and they don’t need to prove to the White man that they’re not “one of the bad ones”. This applies to us, too. Strong Asian-Americans can be good examples to Asian FOBs that they don’t have to take shit just because they are immigrants or because they are Asian.”

    • That is precisely what makes Asian-Americans more similar to the pattern of German-Americans, Italian-Americans, and Irish-Americans. They were all in an odd position during the world war era. Neither fully trusted by either side, but sought to be used by both sides.

      Quite a few German-Americans were also put into internment camps, although it was less systematic because there was simply too many German-Americans to target them all. There was good reason for this, as German-Americans in some cases did act as terrorists in maintaining their loyalty to Germany.

      Fewer Irish-Americans had any interest in terrorizing Americans, but they did want to undermine our alliance to the UK and so blew up US ships that were sending supplies to the British. The Italian-American Mafia, as I mentioned, was enlisted by the US government because the Italian fascists were seen as a common enemy.

      Blacks never dealt with this issue. This is because they were never an immigrant group for the most part. They are mostly the descendants of slaves with no surviving ethnic identity. Blacks are more deeply Americanized than most whites, as their family lines go further back into American history than that of most whites.

    • I don’t find that surprising. Many complain about American education. I know that I do. But it is always good to keep things in perspective. The education system is far advanced from what it used to be. Also, far more Americans now graduate high school and college than ever before. Furthermore, the material students deal with these days is immense more complex and challenging than a few generations ago.

  62. Even the “learn-ed” racists do not seem to understand their “science.”
    HBDers do not understand heritability. The basic error is to conflate heritability with “genetic.” Another basic error is to conflate narrow sense and broad-sense heritability. Another basic error is failure to realize the existence of selection limits.

    HBDers also do not understand evolution. For example, intense selection on a trait removes genetic variance. Further, more complex traits have lower beneficial mutation rates. So, traits with low beneficial mutation rates and heavy selection are not likely to vary much between populations and indeed, maybe even individuals. HBDers tend to repeat arguments from Jensen; one of them on this point is “if the races can differ on X, Y, and Z, why not intelligence?” Such an argument is compelling ONLY if one has no idea about the foregoing basic science.

    I explain this and other facts to them and they simply do not understand. They respond with vitriol and mischaracterize my statements. For example, if I say that no replicated genetic variants for IQ have been found explaining variation in the normal range and that the trait likely exhibits low genetic variability, this is strawmanned as “you think there are no genes for intelligence or IQ.”

    • Hey Swank! You had asked about a comment a while back. I think it was in the spam box and I finally noticed it. After approving it, I lost track of which post it was at. Maybe this was that comment, as I recall you saying it was about HBD.

      Anyway, this is a good comment. Finding it here, I wanted to respond. I apologize for taking so long. I always got the sense that many HBDers simply don’t want to understand. They already have their ideological answer. Complex understanding of science would just complicate it too much.

      I’ve often pointed out that HBDers don’t understand heritability. I only have a basic compehension of it myself and yet I apparently know more than is demonstrated in any HBD discussion I’ve ever seen.

      It’s funny that I recently tweeted something about genetic determinists not understanding heritability, and guess who favorited that tweet. It was hbdchick. I used to comment on her blog for a while, but I finally got irritated by the idiocy. It seems to me that hbdchick is wasting her intelligence and talent on HBD blogosphere, which tends to attract a lot of strange people who only have the loosest grasp of science.

      I hope you see my response here. I didn’t mean to ignore you all this time.

  63. In order for asians to reach the top, we must assimilate some aspects of american culture, because just dominating academics (which not all asians do), will not get you there. I think the situation is changing, as Microsoft just hired an indian CEO and Youtube has an asian founder.
    It is very possible to get asian leadership in schools, without necessarily having a strong and organized asian student organization, even though I have seen strong ASO/ASAs at a number of universities.
    permalinksavegive gold
    [–]Chinaproper_b_wayne 3 points 6 months ago
    Valid analysis. Very cool headed, non-BS-PC way of looking at racial dynamics.
    I agree we really don’t have a strong political identity. We don’t seem to react strongly to attacks against the group.
    (1) Our Asian American identity is quite new. In Asia, the pan-Asian identity is simply very weak or non-existent, mainly due to historical beef between the Asian countries or retarded snobby elitism. Even in the west, unlike the white identity, which formed a long ass time ago in the age of European dominance, or the black identity, which form in response to slavery, oppression and discrimination, Asian identity really didn’t have time to form until in the recent years. We only begin to recently realize that causal racism is damaging and unacceptable. We are only slowly beginning to disillusion from the promise that white society and “rule of law” will somehow protect our interests without having a strong political identity/organizations ourselves.
    (2) I think our identity still have half its foot in native Asian identity, instead of the Asian immigrant identity. Especially the 1st gen elder immigrants are stuck with the native Asian mindset and react angrier towards attacks/offense towards their native country by other Asian countries, rather than attacks/offense towards their new immigrant group identity. So it is fine if other Asian Americans get screwed over. Some might even laugh.
    (3) I think 1st gen Asian immigrant are selected to be the “swallow any bitterness due to racism, work on yourself, don’t care about fucked up world, shut off from the outside world” types. Only they can work hard enough to earn their immigration. So from the get-go, we have high % of people who are the non-political types.
    (4) I think Asian/Confucian-influenced cultural values or maybe it is more accurate to say survivalist values created in a high socially hierarchical society, actively discourage political participation, getting organized, and rebel and fight back against higher powers or society at large. They more likely encourage obedience, “getting-along”, acceptance of suffering, etc. So with this legacy value, Asian Americans will take a long time and hit many obstacles before they realize that they have got to get organized.
    P.S. I am just chuckling to myself a little bit trying to imagine what the response would be like on some overly PC place like r/AA. They probably would have a stroke before the first line when they read “prominent figure … far right”. Lmao.
    permalinksavegive gold
    [–]ChinaFaznscist 5 points 6 months ago
    Asians Americans aren’t voting for the economic interests of themselves, they are voting based on a shared identity with the oppressed and disadvantaged non-Asian minorities.
    This is a very salient point raised by the author.
    When Asians defeated an attempt to bring back Affirmative Action in California, Senator Ted Lieu (D-Torrance) lost endorsements from his Hispanic colleagues.
    At the same time, most Asian American political advocacy groups and Asian liberals and feminists supported bringing back affirmatve action. Not only do Asians have to defend their interests from other minorities, but they also have to deal with a fifth column of self-hating Asians from their own community.
    These self-hating Asians like to accuse other Asians of “anti-blackness” and justify Black violence against Asians (through the framework of critical race theory). This blog and the ones I linked above are examples of that type of mentality, one which is common among Asian feminists/liberals/SJWs.
    We Asians simply can’t rely on the Left to defend us.
    permalinksaveparentgive gold
    [–]MongoliaGenghis-Brah 3 points 6 months ago
    You can make your identity by thinking for yourself.
    permalinksavegive gold
    [–][deleted] 3 points 6 months ago
    A very mild version of a Pan-Asian identity is the hip-hop Asian dancer community, which is mainly populated by Filipinos, but also has large amounts of Koreans involved in it on college campus.
    [–]magicalbird 2 points 6 months ago
    It is partially true that we don’t have a strong sense of identity.
    A solution could be to make our own.
    permalinksavegive gold
    [–]Philippinesol_durrrty 2 points 6 months ago
    Each culture has very strong ties to their cultural identity from what I’ve observed around me. They carry a strong sense of pride in their cultures. Herein lies the strength and weakness that you’ve pointed out. Bear with my analogy for a bit, in America, sticking to our individual cultures and having that strength of pride makes us towns, villages. But, that collectively makes us weak as a whole. If we were able to transcend and unite the cultural boundaries we would have our kingdom. Until we can supersede that I don’t think we’ll get as close to generating change for ourselves. Individually we could subvert the stereotypes, but to flip the script on the entire perception of Asian culture is a a huge effort. Let alone to change the inter-cultural perceptions.
    On the side, one of the things that I’ve not been aware of until join this sub was the lack of positive masculine Asian American/Asian male role models in pop culture. Consider that the last great and thoroughly well known Asian role model was Bruce Lee. Who are the first male role models that pop into mind? Off the top of my head I only can think of three.
    permalinksavegive gold
    [–]Chinaproper_b_wayne 3 points 6 months ago
    … But, that collectively makes us weak as a whole. If we were able to transcend and unite the cultural boundaries we would have our kingdom. Until we can supersede that I don’t think we’ll get as close to generating change for ourselves …
    Strongly agreed. Regardless of our attachment to our own cultural identity, we need to update ourselves to realize that in the west, our interests largely align and it is hurts all of us to not work towards a common goal. The problem is the lack of *uniform awareness” among Asians. Some are very conscious, but lots get by in their own small bubble, largely avoiding racism or have a home base to retreat to.
    I don’t think the cause is as hopeless such that we have to make every Asian groups to get along before we can make some changes. Lots of changes started from only a small base of people. We just need to collect enough “masculinity aware” or socio-politically aware Asians before we can generate some observable effect on society. The neutral civilian non-agitated population will always be the majority. Whether something succeed is always about how efficient those who care utilize what they got.
    permalinksaveparentgive gold

    • I notice that in these kinds of Asian-American discussions there is little knowledge about the long American immigrant and ethnic history. It usually gets simplified down to blacks and whites. That goes to show how far most Asian-Americans have already been assimilated. They’ve accepted the mainstream narrative at face value.

  64. Dude, pope I am a little afraid of responding to your comments now. Lol. You might reply with a novella again. I will keep it short and only respond to a few parts. I get what you are saying generally.

    However, most of the board is still pretty much in the vein of ‘pick up lines’ and ‘get pumped bro’ … but straight, cisgendered males of a very particular variety.
    I don’t know the attitudes of everyone on that sub, but gay/bi/whatever AM are very much welcomed. Also, there is nothing wrong with getting people to lift. This ain’t a straight thing only.

    It has all the elements of an Apatow film … Jewish nerds.
    Lol, you notice this too?

    It’s basically saying that all of the shit that modern society produces is okay, the sexism, the apathy, the materialism, etc so long as it just stops crapping on Asian cisbros. That seems really selfish to me and maybe that’s part of why I kind of like to hate on it.
    We aren’t doing well enough to be worry about “if we won, it will benefit us too much and be unfair to others”. It is a pipe dream for western media to remove the emasculation on Asian male portrayal, at least within several decades.

    AA activists spending too much of its efforts to be “fair” and “nice”, when every other movement’s main focus is on their own self-interest. You think feminist or african american activism think like “oh, we wouldn’t want too much rights or media to portray us too nicely”? Fight for ourselves first. Stop making it crapping on us first, then fight the “good” fight for everyone. You are worrying about your “privilege”, when you don’t have it in the first place.

    One big bone I have against traditional Asian habit is that to complain and fight our own self-interest is “selfish” and looked down against. Civil rights would never happen if it is all Asians. They would probably think that to just be better, work hard, and adapt, before they manage to get enough momentum to protest.

    Also, that … shitty caricature?
    People there like to hate on this sub without reading anything on here or mischaracterizing this sub as some sort of shithole, just like people here like to hate on that sub and do the same. It is the same phenomenon.
    PopePaulFarmerperpetual foreigner333d, 9h1
    but gay/bi/whatever AM are very much welcomed
    Well, you say that, but the vast majority of the relationship-oriented questions on there are for cisgendered, heterosexual males. It’s a little like a high school football team in that way: they say ‘we allow players of all caliber to join’ but then there’s always a roster of perpetually benched players. The coaches on /r/AM aren’t exactly going out of their way to do much about it except to ban hate speech.

    AA activists spending too much of its efforts to be “fair” and “nice”, when every other movement’s main focus is on their own self-interest
    This is untrue as far as modern political activism goes. Any real activist out there today is operating with intersectionality in mind. Ta-Nehisi Coates does it, Mallory Ortberg does it, Roxane Gay does it, everybody with any real credentials and any real discursive power engages with society while keeping in mind the oppressed narratives of other minorities. This may not be what you’re seeing on reddit but suffice it to say that the world is far bigger than the confines of a single website.

    People there like to hate on this sub without reading anything on here or mischaracterizing this sub as some sort of shithole, just like people here like to hate on that sub and do the same. It is the same phenomenon.
    True that. Maybe a little less hate is the way to go. Still, there are problems here (like the whole FOB thing) and there are problems over there. No reason to keep mum.

    • I liked this part:

      “This is untrue as far as modern political activism goes. Any real activist out there today is operating with intersectionality in mind. Ta-Nehisi Coates does it, Mallory Ortberg does it, Roxane Gay does it, everybody with any real credentials and any real discursive power engages with society while keeping in mind the oppressed narratives of other minorities. This may not be what you’re seeing on reddit but suffice it to say that the world is far bigger than the confines of a single website.”

  65. I think you’re misunderstanding what trip meant by “overrepresentation of Asian guys such as Rodger”. He’s stating that a large portion of discussions on Asian masculinity (not limited to the sub) focuses on bitter and violent Asian men who have low self esteem, not that Asian males are overrepresented in general. In turn, Elliot Rodger and the likes become the definitive Asian male persona because there isn’t enough good representation to balance out the bad. And really, I don’t see anything wrong with saying that these men need a more productive or therapeutic way of dealing with internalized racism (as opposed to violence).

    When there is no other socially acceptable path to solve their problems or vent, what do you think some of us turn to?
    Hopefully not mass murder.
    proper_b_wayne334d, 1h2
    First, it’s a she. Second, that’s a complete mischaracterization of r/AM. Third, you basically just mis-interpreted everything I said. I don’t even whether it is worth it to respond to everything that you said wrong.

    “Internalized racism”? Do you even know what that means?

    Hopefully not mass murder.
    What? I was saying turning to reactionary online forces, not turning into Eliot. He doesn’t even identify as Asian in the first place.

    Man… take a deep breath and reread my comments. Not misinterpret everything I said.
    I misunderstood HER comment, which in turn made me misunderstand yours. My bad.

    Although you stating Elliot Rodgers as not identifying as Asian doesn’t help the issue at all, because his Asian heritage and the demasculinization of Asian males clearly played an important part of the shooting and his manifesto.
    proper_b_wayne333d, 23h1
    Let me get this straight.

    He is half white.
    He identifies as white and hates asian man.
    He feels entitled to WHITE woman.
    He has ZERO asian influence in his life, as in he has no Asian in his household growing up, ESPECIALLY NO ASIAN MAN.
    Why isn’t this interpreted as an act of an extremist white boy being misogynist and entitled to woman and being against miscegenation? Instead people are assigning this somehow to “Asian misogynist man culture”. Do you realize how ridiculous this line of thought is? Why don’t you blame his white dad, probably the biggest source of influence in his life, instead of Asian man, who had absolutely nothing to do with him and he doesn’t want anything to do with them either?
    chickenwinged333d, 23h1
    He also identified as Eurasian.
    I’m not attributing this to “Asian misogynist man culture”
    Internalized racism was largely why he was obsessed with whiteness.
    His passing privilege/white privilege and his entitlement to women also played a huge role in the shooting and his manifesto.
    He’s half Asian, not 1/16 Asian. And with or without an Asian man in the household, Asian representation is still relevant to influencing the way biracial people think and identify, which is what I mean by the demasculinization of Asian men.
    Maybe it’s time for you to take a breath.
    proper_b_wayne333d, 22h2
    No, it is time for you to stop applying the one-drop rule. Dude, first, half the stuff you are saying aren’t even replies to what I am saying.

    He also identified as Eurasian.
    No, he accept that he is eurasian, but he magnifies his whiteness and his white identity much more than his Asianness.

    He’s half Asian, not 1/16 Asian. And with or without an Asian man in the household, Asian representation is still relevant to influencing the way biracial people think and identify, which is what I mean by the demasculinization of Asian men.
    Yes, he is half Asian, but his upbringing, how he thinks, and everything he stands for is much more white than Asian. I hate how people assign responsibility of his mistake to his “asian” side. I can even accept (the still ridiculous) assertion that it is both his “white” and his “asian” side fault. Notice how nobody make an article how we should talk about his action as a problem with white man, but tons of articles, even AA, are talking about it as a problem with Asian man. WTF? Do you even get what I saying, or is your mind bent on disagreeing with me?
    chickenwinged333d, 22h1
    I think we both agree about people downplaying his white male privilege and blaming “asianess”. But all I’m saying is that his conflicting thoughts about his biracial identity caused him to be obsessed with whiteness and have internalized racism. Look at tripophoste’s comment or popepaulfarmer’s quote about AA Identity Development Model. A lot of biracial people and bicultural people can have major identity issues, even if their parents are both white or both asian and if they’re white-passing or not.

    I am half White, half Asian, and this made me different from the normal fully-white kids that I was trying to fit in with. I envied the cool kids, and I wanted to be one of them.
    White patriarchy causes the “effeminization” of Asian men and the hypersexuality of black men. I’m not blaming his “asian” side for anything. It’s more like blaming white patriarchy for the belief that white male = best, and I think that’s also why his biracialness matters. And intersectionality links everything anyways.

    proper_b_wayne332d, 9h2

  66. Yeah, cause Reddit really hates racism against Asians, right?
    That’s why people on here upvote shit like ‘Ho Lee Fuk’ and ‘Sum Ting Wong’, even though those jokes became popular after a plane crash where Asian people fucking died, right?
    That’s why every post involving an Asian has to have a bunch of comments mixing up L’s and R’s, even when the specific Asian race mentioned doesn’t mix those up, right?
    What the fuck is up with people like you? Compared to other racist jokes, the ones against Asians get upvoted MASSIVELY. Even the one you responded to is basically at the top!
    To put it in perspective, redditors have the respect and decency to downvote racist comments against Middle-Easterners in posts like ‘ISIS executes their 100th Western Captive’. But when there’s a post about children in North Korea shooting arrows at effigies of Americans or other similar posts that don’t even involve murdering people, there’s so many subtle and not-so-subtle racist bullshit being commented, even when they’re not even fucking killing anybody from a Western country.
    I’m not even upset about the joke. It’s the denial with the pretending that racism against Asians is looked down upon on Reddit that’s fucking retarded and just plain stupid. It’s just so fucking malicious to see so much racism against Asians being upvoted so often AND THEN pretending that’s not what’s going on. That’s like the very definition of ‘gaslighting’!
    You are not going to be downvoted for comments like yours and the one you responded to. Are you stupid? I’M the one that’s going to be downvoted to Hell 9 times out of 10. You can even proclaim to comment with racist and malicious intentions and still get away with that racist shit most times. Why isn’t that enough? Why do all you fucks have to try to fuck with our heads by spewing as much racist shit as possible, then saying that that’s not what’s happening?
    You knew you were going to get upvoted with your comment. Why was it necessary to add in pretending that you’re so edgy with it?
    Stop being a fucking idiot, see what you’re doing for what it really is, and how it really is accepted and leave it at that. You still win! Your racism is still upvoted! No need to add in more bullshit!
    And you know what? Argue all you want, but there are Asians in this world (there’s a lot of us, right?) that don’t like hearing the L/R mixup jokes, the ‘you all look alike’ jokes, the ‘they’re so short’ jokes, the ‘hope he doesn’t eat his dog’ jokes, the ‘fucking Japan and their weirdness’ jokes, the minimalizing comments about our successes like ‘OF COURSE they’re good at that! They’re fucking Asian!’, and the popular tangents for positive Asian posts like, ‘Well, yes, their society does this thing efficiently, BUT it’s ONLY because their culture is so fucked, so revolved around shame, so super close-minded, that OF COURSE they’re going to do this better than other countries!’ (Cause NO OTHER SINGLE COUNTRY OF A DIFFERENT ETHNICITY IN THE WORLD can be selectively summarized in that same way, right?)
    Just because all you fucks on Reddit memorized all the Asian people that love your racist bullshit doesn’t mean that all of us feel that way.
    But go ahead, downvote me, and proceed to tell me how I should feel and why we should be ok with the constant racism just because you know a million other Asian people that are ok with it.
    Cause you guys totally use that excuse to spew and MASSIVELY upvote BLATANT, CONSTANT, EXTREME (<– Keywords) racist bullshit against black, hispanic, and middle-eastern people, right?
    Lol, fucking racist hypocrites.
    Edit (09:28 PST): Holy frijoles. I just got back to this post and 12 golds?! I haven't started reading the replies yet, but I'm sure a lot of them are supportive, so thanks, everyone! Thanks even to the replies that are no doubt going to be full of rationalization of the racism and/or denial because you are adding to the point I was trying to make.
    As of right now, this comment has 1500+ points. That's amazing. As much as the racist or just plain stubborn and ignorant people on Reddit want to pretend that 'everybody' and 'most Asians' are ok with the jokes we hear everyday, this proves that that's not true. This just proves that a lot of us against it, but are silent for one reason or another, one of which is the amount of bullshit thrown at us when we bring up how racist something is, I'm sure. This just shows that everyone else is just really willfully ignorant just for the sake of being able to stay racist. It's fucking dumb.
    This shows that I and you guys aren't alone in opposing a lot of what is said on Reddit. So don't be complacent, and start speaking out whenever something sounds really racist to you. And NEVER feel pressured to laugh at something that makes you uncomfortable just because it's 'a joke', even when it feels like you're alone in how you feel. Cause you're not alone 🙂 We just need to start speaking out more.
    At the very least, we can eventually help people realize what is and what is not ok in terms of racial humor. Cause I'm super sick of this crap.
    You guys are awesome 😀
    permalinkembedsaveparentgive gold
    [–]ShartShark 660 points 6 months ago*x2
    Being a Korean immigrant in the US, I totally feel you.
    Because South Korea has good relations with the U.S., and no one really knows the struggles of Korean immigrants in U.S. history (L.A. riots for example), people think it's okay to crack jokes on Koreans, and all other Asians for that matter.
    It was a lose-lose situation growing up in the States for me. Get made fun of for NO FUCKING REASON. If you don't retaliate, it's because Asian kids are nerdy and weak. If you do, it's because you know 'kungfu and karate and shit' and it's not fair, and the school will rain hell on you, you become the crazy Asian kid that couldn't assimilate. Do well in school? Your accomplishments aren't recognized, nor your hard work. It's the default option for being Asian, you have to do well. Are your grades average or worse? What the hell is wrong with you, you're not an American kid, you have to excel and work your ass off.
    We're not allowed to form our own identities. If we try to break free of the mold, then we are labelled as failures and incompetents. Frankly, most Asian people I know and grew up with don't fit the stereotype in everyone's heads that often become the butt of the joke. And people feel that we don't have the grounds to retaliate because they're 'harmless words,' or 'your people were never enslaved' or 'your people are financially well off'
    Asian people can't possibly fit into all those boxes. Asian American poverty in some parts of the country is heartbreaking. The Asian Americans of the 19th and 20th century, and even the 21st century were many times oppressed people.
    I wish more people knew about Asian American (or any other Asian culture). But history often glances over these things and many people remain ignorant.
    **thank you for the gold anonymous redditors. I'm glad my first gold was about something more profound than a meme. I hope it can give some people perspective they may not have considered before. To all the haters: I don't claim to be right. I don't claim to be hypocrisy-free. I don't claim that Koreans aren't racist and have only been victims. I just wished to share my own thoughts and experiences.

  67. I feel like the reason asian stereotypes have flourished is because we don’t actively bitch about them and how they put us down. I’m second generation Chinese, and all my life people have made jokes about how “its natural I do well in school” and “we’re a bunch of savages” for having a wider diet range such as octopus, sea weed, dogs, birds, etc. I actually fought against them a lot and got a couple of reprimandations for making a fuss, but then I guess they stuck it in my head that racist jokes are all fun and games right?
    Then comes middle school, and I casually roll off a Mexican joke like “What’s the difference between a Mexican and a bench? the bench can support a family hurdurdur”. I really thought it was okay because people just roll off their asian jokes like “HAHA YOU MUST EAT YOUR DOGS RIGHT HAHA” so I was like okay cool seems like this is the system. Guess what? I get suspended for saying this remark, and when I bring up other kids saying these offensive remarks about Asians, I just get told “its not the same thing”.
    Its complete bullshit how people get blasted to hell for making a black or mexican joke, but then become the funniest guy in the room for making an asian joke. Because asians never got “oppressed by white people” or “enslaved for generations” or “ravaged by drug cartels”. But then they mysteriously forget about the Opium Wars caused by Britain, or the massive riots that lynched Chinese immigrants out in the West for “taking all their jobs”. When black people play the race card and say,”Our ancestors worked for you, you work for us etc..” they seem to think that their culture was unique in having brutal work conditions to survive. Chinese Americans worked tirelessly to build the railroads that connect this country, risking death from dynamite, and being paid literally dirt money to survive. Sure, maybe slavery was a little worse, but it doesn’t make what happened to asians any better.
    It really fucking sucks how people can somehow justify that one racist joke is more racist than the other. And the problem is when you talk out against it, people say “stop being a wuss” while if its a black/mexcian joke its like “seriously reconsider your life you cunt”. At this point in my life, I’ve learned to shrug off these stereotypes about my ancestry, but I hope sometime in the future racial jokes can be taken with the same effect no matter the race, whether it be “all fun and games” or “don’t be so insensitive”.

    • I understand how irritating it might be that so many white Americans forget about Asian-American oppression from the past. But Americans are pretty clueless about history in general. It pisses me off that most white Americans, including those of German ancestry, don’t even know about the history of German-American oppression. Entire independent German-American communities were destroyed, and they were the largest ethnic group in the country. Americans have short memories, both about their own history and the history of others.

  68. LMAO

    Without the Japanese, there would not have been a “California” as we know it. They went into the Central Valley and sunk wells deeper than anyone and eventually found water. This allowed for the HUGE California agricultural industry.
    California marks the official end of the Pacific Rim … so Asians have brought centuries of design with them. Walking through Berkeley, California AND the Peninsula, one sees some of the most beautiful neighborhoods in America. Why? The landscaping is influenced by Asian, Mexican / Spanish, and Scandinavia influences.
    MUSIC. One of my greatest pleasures used to be going to the annual Japanese Jazz Festival held in Golden Gate Park each year. Watching the ethnic mixture of musicians take the audience through styles of Jazz and eventually blowing our minds with full blown traditional Jazz being played by ancient traditional Asian instruments …. well … the hybrid effects weren’t only glorious, but extremely innovative.
    Silicon Valley. Not long after the 08′ Crash, I was walking through the Stanford campus one day and an older white woman moved her hand across the skyline and asked me if I knew who was recently responsible for keeping the area’s economy afloat. I said, “No”. She replied … “Asians.”
    Spirituality. Yes, if our schools wanted to, they could teach Americans of all backgrounds to do math as well as anyone else. But, I think the deep Buddhist, Taoist, Confucius (don’t laugh), philosophies that has over time, seeped into many Asian cultures has brought a more stable voice the the multi-ethinic field that the “United States” are.
    OUR CARS!! When Detroit was sucking our blood during the 70s with lousy cars that came with “Built-in obsolescence, Asian car makers took the opportunity to built a better, cheaper product and changed the market and saved the average Joe from having to buy a new car every three years.

    Read more: http://www.city-data.com/forum/california/2341632-norcal-asians-vs-socal-asians-3.html#ixzz3jc5UkzDs

  69. Fwiw East Asians traditionally don’t care for outside appearance as much as inside appearenxe. It’s why even in japan housing and landscape can be ass-ugly and look second world from the outside, but it always nice inside :p

    I think the houses themselves here are fine. It’s the class + foreigner drama exhibited here really. Many people wax about the tearing down the 50’s middle class homes, but those homes are no more architecturally notable than these McMansions. They frankly are just generic tract housing representing the mass suburbanization of that time.


    • I hold no emotional attachment to tract housing suburbanization. I despise it, in fact. Not that I like McMansions either. If Asian-Americans move into the suburbs, I wish they’d tear it down and replace it with something traditionally Asian in style. The last thing Asian-Americans should assimilate to is American suburbs, whether tract houses or McMansions.

  70. I know many conservatives wax about the 50’s. I almost think being white is a prerequisite to that. I sure as hell am not gonna get nostalgic over an era of mass subirbanization, getting forced into the house as a woman, being legal to discriminate against me cause I’m asian, etc

  71. Part of what he is attempting to allude to is that mutations regarding intelligence occur in the X chromosome. Men do not (usually) possess a second X chromosome to back up the mutated one. As a consequence there are indeed more male geniuses than female ones, as well as more really stupid men than really stupid women.

    • It was an informative article. But it also had a narrow focus that I found a bit irritating. The author was too quick to jump to conclusions on too little info. There was very little discussion about how genetics interact with environments and absolutely no mention of epigenetics. I hope that scientific reporting on genetics begins improving.

  72. “2 years ago
    John Maynard Keynes — wow! You think that anyone in born into this country is ENTITLED to “live comfortably” from “cradle to grave”. OMG! That would surely be bankrupting to our capitalist nation, as we live in a global ecosystem — not in a vacuum. To extend your logic, should everyone globally be entitled to live comfortably? Including those who are the unfortunate product of early and unwanted pregnancy. Where does merit enter the pciture? It sounds like you are a socialist.

    • Should everyone globally be entitled to basic freedoms, rights, and opportunities? Should everyone globally be entitled to not be violently oppressed, starved, tortured, etc? Should everyone be entitled globally to not have public goods privatized and have their commons stolen while costs are externalized onto them? Should everyone globally be entitled to self-governance and self-determination of their own lives, families, and communities? Well… yes, they should be so ‘entitled’. Those should all be considered basic human rights and inviolable at that, if we cared even slightly about justice and fairness, compassion and morality.

  73. Implicit bias among Asians in the study is notable because it challenges the in-group/out-group theory of bias. The study found only a 4% margin of difference between the percentage of monoracial Asians who favored Asians and the percentage of monoracial Asians who favored Whites – 38% of Asians favored whites over Asians, while 42% of Asians favored other Asians over whites.
    …The highest level of implicit racial preference revealed in the entire study was among whites being tested for bias against Asian Americans, with 50% of whites tested in the study revealing a subconscious preference for other whites over Asians. Thirty percent of whites had no implicit bias, and 19% of whites had a subconscious preference for Asians.


    • It is interesting that about 50% of American whites either are unbiased toward or actually expressing a preference for Asians. There actually isn’t a big difference between the percentage of Asians that prefer whites and vice versa, respectively 30% and 38%, maybe not all that statistically significant.

  74. My own personal (addmittedly hair-brained, and unsubstantiated) theory is that there is something about white people that all humans are wired to look up to. In Malcom Gladwell’s book, he cites repeated cases where there’s a white bias, that crosses cultures and ethnicities. In Jamaica, there’s a obvious hierarchy among skin colors. Black people are shown to have a bias against themselves. Gladwell himself had a bias for white people ( he’s half black).
    You combine that with dominant social status and decades of media and movies where they are the protagonists, you get asians hopelessly enthralled.

  75. Here is a thought…you have your child enrolled in a school…their job is to teach him…make them do their job. Its really not that difficult.

    We didnt have the option for Montessori or any other alternate schooling. When my daughter was in 6 yrs old, she was tested and found to have the numeracy ability of a 15 yr old…and the literacy level of a 17 yr old. Her school wanted to put her ahead two years. I wouldnt allow this as it happend to me when I was a kid…..academically still not a challenge, however, emotionally it was a disaster.

    I discussed the options with her school – they were participating in unsatisfactory behaviour by taking her out of her grade 3 class and sending her to other year levels to help kids with learning difficulties. She was spending an hour a day in her own class. I was not happy with this, not at all!…..So,…..I put my foot down. I did a substatial amount of research and found that the way to deal with these kids is not to pull them from class or put them ahead of their peers….and certainly not to stifle them….but to continue to occupy them at the same level as their peers.

  76. My 8-year-old son is very bright, with an IQ of 133. He is in the gifted program at school once a week and seems to enjoy it. My concern is his time in the regular ed. classroom–he just doesn’t seem to even try. He reads above grade level, but doesn’t really like to read (is that strange for a kid who’s so bright?)–which results in him not really paying attention when he’s reading and then his retention of what he’s read goes down. He’ll get 100’s on several math assignments in a row, then get an F–like he just decided to space out that day. Sometimes on assessments at school, he scores very high, other times he gets average scores. He doesn’t seem to actually put any real effort into the things he does. Socially and emotionally, he’s 8 years old and likes all the things other 8 year old boys like, he can also be somewhat impulsive. Has anyone else experienced this with their gifted child?

    Helpful (2)

    Elyse – posted on 11/08/2008
    YES! My son is now almost 16, took the SAT in 7th grade and scored higher in math than the average high school senior, and just brought home an F in a chem. lab! They lack motivation, not intellect; he gets bored.


    Helpful (3)

    sandra – posted on 09/30/2012
    My son was definitely an under achiever. They budgeted the gifted program out of our school system the year my son was old enough for it (3rd grade) and started servicing them through special ed. Our special ed program was not something I was interested in.

  77. Lol. When I was a kid I loved human body books, and non fiction. Then the teachers made me read fictio books, which I never did. Later on I did though, but not the kind the teachers wanted me to read :p

    These frustrated g parents need to assert their authority more hojestly.

    Carla – posted on 05/26/2015
    Thank you all so much for posting all of this. All this sounds so much like my son. He is 17 and gets A’s on his tests but doesn’t turn in his homework so they give him a D. He does the math in his head and gets marked off for not showing his work. He hates school. I have been dealing with this since he was in 2nd grade. He has always hated school. He is a quiet introspective kid. Very empathetic, kind, gentle and not a rough and tumble kid. He is very emotionally mature and wouldn’t be swayed by peer pressure. He goes by the beat of his own drum. The problem is we let him skip 11th grade so he is doing 11th and 12th all this year. He is failing 3 classes because he won’t do the work. I asked him why and he said I know the answers and I will ace the regents – which he has every time in the past. But, when he gets to college it won’t work that way.
    If he fails these 3 classes he can take them in summer school but he will hate that too. He is 17 and I told him his failures are his own and he said he knows it. I am just tired of nagging him to go to school when he refuses. His teachers have given me work for him and he has done most of it. I don’t know if I should tell him just to focus on the classes I know he can pass for this last 4 weeks of school and expect him to retake the ones he doesn’t pass. For some reason he still thinks he is going to pass everything. Thanks for letting me vent.



    Sara – posted on 06/03/2014
    This sounds EXACTLY like my son! His IQ is the same (he was tested in kindergarden, but I’ve heard it rarely changes much in childhood). He’s been able to read since he was 3…reading the sides of divert trucks and DVDs when he thought no one was listening, but when asked to read aloud, made every effort to avoid it. When his dad and I were together (we split when he was 3 1/2) we bought “your baby can read” for him–although I told his dad it was pointless lol. He ALREADY figured it out, of course. But he would practically have a breakdown when we’d tell him it was time to watch “Giovanni can read” (that’s what we named it to get him interested, which was a big mistake because he’d already read the cover and knew we were LYING to him, and possibly tricking him into performing–something else he hates, along with talking on the phone, team sports, and social media). He’d scream “NO!–not ‘Giovanni can read!’.” And he routinely gets horrible marks on his assignments, if he turns them in at all. He can do algebra in his head, but he won’t finish 5 days of math in a row…after a week of 100%s. He won’t even sign his name (or it’s so sloppy you can’t read it.)

    The not wanting to reading worried me because he is supposed to read every day at home and he hated it….until we let him read whatever he wanted. He’s now alternating between The Bible, an art book about Rembrant, and Moby Dick. In fact, we just discussed how different his next book (Les Misérables) will be because it’s actually a translation–whereas MD was originally written in English. And he GETS THAT. How do you know your child is gifted?

    You just know. You get it too.



    Brynn – posted on 12/07/2012
    That was me. I’m now almost 30, but you basically described my life till I was in high school. At 16, I forced my parents to pull me from public school and place me in an independent study program which changed everything. It might just be that the learning environment doesn’t work for him, so why should he buy in? As a public school teacher, 100 percent of school is buy-in and that isn’t something you can force someone into.



    NRSZALDUA – posted on 11/26/2012
    i dont know if my child is gifted. if he wants to get a high grade he can do it but if he is not in the mood even though he knows what to do or how to answer it he doesnt care if he gets a low score, he answers too fast and writes too fast that makes his notes unreadable but when you ask him, he can tell you what he writes. he can’t really focus but he can remember or review too fast, every quarterly exams and quizzes he gets perfect and almost perfect scores but during practice and seatworks he really doesnt mind to get a low scores. He study effortless and when he comes home from school he knows almost his lessons. My concern is he can’t focus and always thinking ahead what he’s going to do next.



    Michelle – posted on 01/07/2012
    I could have been your son at that age. I loved the gifted program time, but back in regular class was awful. I would get A’s on assessments but be failing because I wasn’t turning in assignments. Two things helped – one, it was discovered that my math skills weren’t as advanced as everything else and I got assistance for that, two, the school librarian helped me see the options for jr high & high school and decent grades were as important as testing for the advanced schools. That gave me the kick I needed and there I found other brilliant friends (many much brighter than I!) who had more similar interests and made getting through high school interesting.
    The IEP idea is interesting, but I wonder if it will work if your child isn’t into it. As for reading, is there anything he’s interested in? My child was above average but hated reading until we discovered she was interested in science topics instead of fiction that all the other kids liked. Other kids had book reports on wimpy kids, she did her’s on planets, space exploration, spiders, bees…it is what it took to get her reading at level. Good luck! It can take a while for a truly gifted kid to find their path, but something internally motivating to them will be a big help.”

  78. i think that its not so much about confirmaity as like, resting on one’s laurels? For example, a lot of Chinese are super proud of the fact that we invented paper and printing blocks and gunpowder, but they will admit that we kind of… were satifieed with that and didn’t go further.
    It also have to do with the fact that Chinese civilization was kind of peerless within their region of influence (ie India was the only comparable civilization but there’s the entire Himalayas between the countries ) So what happened was that while white people are busy inventing new ways of killing each other on continental Europe and thus inventing new weaponry and stuff, China didn’t nearly have that much of an incentive because everyone and their mother was our vassal state.
    And then when America dominated, they didn’t stop inventing, and that’s kind of what Chinese ppl are talking about when they say white ppl are creative, like it seems like even through isolationism and everything, white ppl never stops coming up with new things.
    A lot of social liberals in China right now lament the fact that it took white people one or two revolutions to ditch monarchy but somehow after thousands of years China is still pretty much a dynasty-based system. (Hence chinese ppl calling the current government Tianchao, the “Dynasty of Heavens” mostly ironic/sarcastically)

    • It’s too easy to have a short vision. The US has only been a significant global power this past century. Even within that, it was only because of WWII that the US was able to get ahead. That isn’t that long. It’s barely a blink of they eye in historical terms. There have been empires that rules for several times longer than the US has existed.

      We live in such dynamic and unstable times that power and economic fortunes could shift more quickly than at any other prior period. I see the US easily falling into stagnation or falling preying to internal divisions. I wouldn’t be so sure that America’s influence will last or remain as wide-ranging. If it does, it will only because of the influx of immigrants from such countries as China.

    • There are three reasons America has dominated.

      First, location has been immensely influential, as a large continent-wide country with oceans on either side. Second, there are massive amounts of natural resources in North America, including the best farm soil in the world, along with a massive water system of rivers and lakes. Third, it’s an immigrant nation that has depended on taking the best minds from countries around the world.

      Some other factors could be added. Vast wealth was built through slavery. America built its global empire by piggybacking on a close alliance with the British Empire. One of the reasons the British Empire became so powerful was because it had an early industrialization fueled by easily accessible large deposits of coal.

      Most of these are accidents of fate. No one can take personal credit for them. Anyway, Europe would still be a backwards place, if not for all that was invented in the Middle East and Asia. Alphabetic language, mathematics, gunpowder, compasses, paper, printing presses, etc. China invented professional governance. All of this is pretty much everything modern civilization is built upon. Europe came quite late to the game and most European countries have only been seriously in the game for a few centuries. That is nothing in the big picture of technological, social, and cultural advance of civilization.

      If history is any basis of the future, the Western global powers will likely collapse in the coming centuries and not leave much behind. All societies go through periods of creativity and stagnation. That is nothing new.

  79. saying asians raise their nose bridge to become white is an incredibly black and white view on this matter, and is as inflammatory as saying caucasians in america get lip fillers, tans, and butt implants to look black. it’s a very western-centric view and conceit on the part of white people looking at east asian culture as foreign, weird and so inferior that they have to staunchly copy the almighty west.
    i do agree that images of caucasians have influenced asian beauty standards, as all developing/developed nations are aware of what beauty standards exist internationally. additionally, western colonialism HAS influenced asians into thinking many of their natural features aren’t good enough, that people with eurasian genes are naturally better looking (because white mixes -> higher social class -> better looking by association), and it’s true that caucasians are still often associated with gentility (just look at how many caucasian models are used in asian products that are marketed to only an asian population). however, i do not think asians are doing it because they specifically want to look like white people, and many procedures they do like getting puffy undereye bags are just plain reported as LOOK HOW WEIRD THOSE ASIANS ARE!! without the “they want to look white!” sensationalism BS usually accompanying korean plastic surgery articles in the west. i find that white people often have an incredibly narrow perception of what asians look like anyway and immediately think that they’re trying to erase their supposedly specific “ethnic” features when, shock, asians have a HUGE range of natural features just like white people do, just like people of every race do. small defined noses, large flat noses, hooked noses, small eyes, large eyes, prominent cheekbones, softer cheekbones, square face, small face etc. etc. a lot of asians already have these specific features that other asians go under the knife to obtain.
    additionally, the stereotypical caucasian nose does not look like asian plastic surgery’s ideal nose. even white people often shave down their noses to make it smaller, are they perhaps erasing their natural “ethnic” identity of large, prominent noses? asians rarely ask for surgery to make their nose raised to the same level as caucasians, they only want noses that still look asian, but higher than their own natural one. however, rhinoplasty is still very tricky so many of them end up with these very unnatural looking noses as you describe. additionally, many asians agree that korean plastic surgery often goes too far, and if they look weird it’s more that they go in excess rather than wanting to look more “white”
    so yes, asians want to look higher class, which is often associated with caucasianness, but the definition of current asian beauty standards is not only wrapped up in as simple an explanation as, “they want to look white.” asians go under the knife to look like versions of themselves that can go toe to toe with the international beauty standard, which has been largely influenced by the west due to the west’s global dominance over the last century. however, right now asia is in a weird flux where the west is still viewed as a dominating power but asia has its own media and are as able to be global arbiters of what is beautiful as western colonizers in the past, so out of that there have erupted beauty trends that look strange to western eyes.
    as a side note, i’m starting to see white people trying to look japanese on youtube or exalting those oh so exotic monolids, so maybe one day we’ll get strongly stereotyped posts asking, “why are white people trying to erase their unique ethnic features like their large hooked noses and sunken eyes? why do they want to look like other races so bad :/?” i mean, this is already happening to some extent but you don’t see many articles expressing bemusement at it similar to how korean plastic surgery is covered in the west.

    • It’s funny how people obsess about looks.

      When I watch some BBC shows, I sometimes think that there is a surprising number of British actors, especially English, that are not particularly good looking. If non-whites are trying to emulate white appearances, it sure isn’t the English look they are going for. Not to say that all English people are ugly. But I suspect most people prefer the physical features of the Irish or Northern Europeans.

      Maybe it has to do with American influence. The US has more people of Irish ancestry than does Ireland and also more people of German ancestry than of any other ancestry. Midwesterners and a lot of West Coasters have a tone of German genetics in them, along with Scandinavian genetics. Hollywood has projected that body ideal to the world.

      • Whites do look different between ethnicities, so that makes sense.

        Though, you have to realize that the whites Asians in Asia are exposed to are the models, movie stars, people basically paid for their looks. In fact there’s pretty funny stories of Asians coming it the west and being shocked that most whites don’t look anything like the models and movie stars. Lol

        Aren’t british people stereotyped as being ugly? I don’t know. I generally don’t find Germanic people attractive. Slavic people are nice though.

        • I don’t know that the British are more ugly than average. But there is something about an ugly British person that really stands out to me.

          I saw this one British actor the other day. He certainly would have had no acting career in the US. Maybe the British have lower standards for their actors. I don’t know, but this guy had a face that was so unusual that it was almost cartoonish. If the ugly British is a stereotype, this guy fit that stereotype perfectly.

          The early Hollywood look is the tall blond. The stereotypical California surfer boy, which was to an extent based on reality. It is still the look that Fox News goes for its women reporters.

          My friend was visitng the other day. She lives in Oregon these days, but grew up in Iowa. She says that she can tell Midwesterners by their looks, especially for places like Iowa. There is a stereotype for the Iowa farm boy: big and blonde with a solid square jaw. It’s distinctive, if you have spent enough time in the Midwestern farming states.

          The early national tv anchors and many movie actors came from the Midwest because the accent was considered neutral, and a large number came from one particular area, the core of Standard American English. That is how the dialect of my tiny part of the country became the national standard, and how the media image of America became represented by those who spoke that dialect before it became standard.

          I have no doubt that ugliness is found in all populations. It is hardly an objective measure. The British used to portray the Germans as ugly when they were enemies. However, some cultures are more obsessed about such things and maybe go to greater effort to ensure their ugly people don’t get seen as much on tv and movies.

  80. slides in Black female here. HA! You are oh so wrong. In fact, it’s not just white that is more acceptable in the black community. Its pretty much any other race to give you mixed babies is cool. Sometimes it is blatantly put like this. But I agree with /u/asiantemp that it more or less manifests itself in the fact that lighter skin/a loose curl pattern is seen as “better” or that guys want girls that have a little extra “exotic” something. slides out

  81. Sorry but we really need to figure out what the fuck causes this (i mean the condition) and why. Then we need to work on reducing the effects of this. I can feel compassion because she can’t help it, but Jesus Christ, don’t convince me this isn’t a disability. Which it is accepted as fact, but people arguing that it’s just as good as not being disabled. Fuck that. The only people so say that are the people too emotionally invested. We can try to accomadated you, and show compassion for something you can’t help, but god forbid that there’s nothing wrong with this behavior and that this disability dosent come with shitty aspects that are worth looking into cures for.


    • The friend who was visiting me has a daughter. She has been trying to get her daughter diagnosed because she has all the symptoms of Aspergers, including the meltdowns. My friend is a smart lady and she does detailed research. She is a great advocate for her kid. But none of it changes the fundamental problem.

      That is a shitty position for a parent to be in. And it is also shitty for everyone else, including teachers and other kids who have to be around those meltdowns and such.

      Some parents of autistics worry about vaccinations because of small doses of mercury. The general worry makes sense, even if the fear of vaccinations is irrational. We are surrounded by toxins these days. Studies have proven that toxins contribute to autism, along with other disorders such as ADHD. Knowing this, why do we continue to allow so many toxins in our environment and refuse to enforce strict regulations for pollution and chemicals used in products?

      • >That is a shitty position for a parent to be in. And it is also shitty for everyone else, including teachers and other kids who have to be around those meltdowns and such.

        I don’t like the advocates who completely downplay this, and/or shame/guilt people for not wanting to put up with it. You know what I mean?

        I know people say it’s a spectrum. So what? You’re asking people to gamble on their chances?

        • I mean like this. It seems like total entltlement. Not to believe in social services and accomadation, but to act like their kid’s condition is just as desirable as not having it, and hence they want to stop disability advocacy at accomadating them, rather than actually getting to the root of the disability and even treating it.

          At the end of the day it’s a genetic fuckup. You make the best of it, but it’s a genetic fuckup. Autism? Genetic issues, but also evidence of toxins and you know, bad shit in the environment. Before you say genetic diversity… to bad DS isn’t genetically inherited but a chromosomal fuckup that produces people who generally don’t reproduce. Genetic diversity means fuck all if people afflicted don’t reproduce smh


          • I always wondered what was wrong with using egnetic engineering to make people superhuman. The problemsI have with it are sociatal: I don’t want the technology to only bnefor the rich or otherwise exacerbate inequality. But I have no issueds with the tech itself.

            People are just scared of what they don’t understand. In the case of disability advocates, they’re scared of the entire intelelctual energy they’ve built up to become, well, invalidated.


            ” There is no scenario — I repeat, no scenario, none whatsoever — in which any woman knows that, if she foregoes conception now, she will have a normal child later on. Earlier in the chapter, in the course of demonstrating that some children’s disabilities truly do place crushing emotional burdens on parents, Glover had adduced the case of Julia Hollander, mother of a child with significant brain damage: “the cause of her problem was not genetic,” Glover notes. “When she was born, the placenta peeled away early, and this destroyed her cerebral cortex” (40). Yes, well: this is quite terrible, but it should at least give pause to bioethicists who concoct scenarios in which women decline to initiate a pregnancy now in the assurance that they will have a normal child if they only wait. The world in which bioethicists propose such things, the world in which Kamm can chastise a woman who produces a “defective” child “when she could have easily (!) avoided it,” is a world without birth trauma, without conditions undiagnosable before birth (autism, pervasive developmental delay), without any sense of contingency — let alone an openness to the unbidden. Such trolley problems and what-if hypotheticals profoundly distort what it is like to contemplate having a child who may have a disability; indeed, they distort what it is like to have a child.”

            Yo dawg, it’s about probability. Life runs on probabilities. Get it? probabilities

      • My friend has no romantic notions about her child’s disabilities. She has made it clear that her life would be so much easier with a normal child. She isn’t just dealing with her child’s problems, but also her own problems and that of other family members. She has had a brain concussion. And her mother is experiencing cognitive decline, possibly related to autoimmune disorder.

        Are those all just varieties of “cognitive diversity” to be embraced and celebrated? I don’t think my friend wants to accommodate her child’s Asperger’s, her mother’s cognitive decline, or her own concussion. She would prefer a cure for all of them, if possible.

        What reasonable and moral person would want to condemn any person to these difficult expressions of “cognitive diversity”? Her kid suffers and struggles because she doesn’t understand how to act normal and fit in. That sucks big time for a kid. What cold-hearted asshole would not want to cure that?

        Of course, failing a cure, accommodation is second best. But meanwhile we should be seeking cures and eventually prevention before conception or at least before birth.

        • Well autism can’t be scanned for (yet.) but there already is “prevention” for scannable problems like Down syndrome, since most DS kids are aborted a majority of the time. There is no cure for DS, yet. And you got people protesting against the idea of cures. And sbortion (prevention) makes them uneasy. They just want their abnormalities to be considered normal and accomadated.

        • Well autism is a range which is the common arguMent. Some autistic people do cool shit, are accomplished scientists, artists, etc,

          I don’t see how this argument is a argument though. It dosent exactly invalidate the problems of the disorder, and overlooks that this shouldn’t speak for all autistics.

        • This is interesting, but statistically, fetuses with mental disorders and retardation are aborted at much higher rates than babies only known for physical problems like select palate.

        • “Well autism is a range which is the common arguMent. Some autistic people do cool shit, are accomplished scientists, artists, etc,

          “I don’t see how this argument is a argument though. It dosent exactly invalidate the problems of the disorder, and overlooks that this shouldn’t speak for all autistics.”

          That also fits into my friends experience, both for her daughter and for herself.

          Her daughter does have lots of abilities. But it is pure speculation to claim that she wouldn’t have those abilities if her autism could be cured.

          As for my friend, she has noticed that her concussion has simultaneously lessened some of her abilities and increased others. For example, she now has a more intuitive ability to play the piano.

          The price for that new ability was extremely high. Even so, it doesn’t come as close to the problems her daughter deals with. Besides, it wasn’t as if her music ability wasn’t always there or couldn’t have been developed without a concussion.

  82. @jae426 – But then so am I – Asperger’s – and would say that for some people with autistic spectrum disorders life can be valid and even enriching. Give it a chance to live and the love, time and support it needs to become itself.

    tree_and_leaf Oldhermit

    @Oldhermit – I’m not on the spectrum – though there are certain traits of it I can see in myself – but I have several friends who have Asperger’s. I know that things have been very hard for them at times, and still is on occasion, but I love and value them and recognise the many good things they have done with their lives. I would never wish that they had never been born, and I don’t think they do, either.

    Thunderbolt23 Oldhermit

    @Oldhermit –

    To what extent as parents should we ever feel free to gamble unencumbered with someone else’s potential quality of life though? And that’s what it is – a gamble.

    Clearly, you are happy to be have born and to experienced life. However, many will have not. Being micawbrewish about it is the equivalent of putting your head in the sand and just assuming everything will be hunky dory.


  83. I think that because of the experience of the Holocaust, we tend to assume that a human life is valuable at all costs. But sometimes the disability is so severe that there is no quality of life. I will always remember seeing a hospital ward filled with severely disabled young people. They were permanently strapped to wheel chairs, in constant discomfort and pain and their brain function was almost certainly much less than a domestic pet. If you kept your cat in such circumstances you would be universally condemned as cruel and self indulgent.
    But humans are animals too.
    A majority of disabled people can have a good quality of life and that life should be celebrated and supported, but sometimes a reasonable quality of life is just impossible.
    There is also the quest of whether a foetus in the early stages of development counts as a fully formed human being. For me it is absolutely not and a woman’s right to choose at the early stages of her pregnancy should be absolute, for whatever reason.

    • That expresses my own view as well. But I’d take it further. It isn’t just people in hospital wards that suffer. The world is filled with suffering people. I support dealing with that suffering in all ways possible. We need better welfare and healthcare, but also abortion should remain an option. We also should be doing research to prevent problems at the genetic level and then abortion could be a moot issue.

  84. I know I sound like an evil Darwinist or somethig.

    But I truly feel “hats off” towards parents of disabled kids who are pro-life, or parents or are just trying to get by. However, I feel really fuckij irritated with parents like academic and his ilk.

    • I support all people, including all parents, of disabled children and otherwise.

      Life is tough. There are no easy answers. But we could have better answers if we were willing to openly discuss these issues and were willing to spend the massive funding necessary, including toward politically incorrect genetic research (also toward research on factors of environment and epigenetics).

      There is so much fear around this topic. There are too many people who want to limit what can be talked about or want to shut down debate entirely.

    • Some of the comments were decent. But not all of them. Here is a comment that demonstrates a typical problem:

      ” My son Dakota is 11, and was diagnosed with Asperger’s Disorder at the age of 3, his father was Diagnosed with the same At age 32. We often thought of his father as rude, or just unsocial, it was not until Dakota was diagnosed that his father was diagnosed with the same. So clearly there is some sort of genetic tie. But, there is no reason, there is no cure, and there is nothing to explain it…”

      It is so easy for people to jump to genetic determinism. It is so much part of the assumptions of our society. It is amazing how few people know about epigenetics, which also gets passed on from parent to child. If there had been an environmental cause of the father’s Asperger’s, that potentially could get passed on through epigenetics to the child and maybe over many more generations as well.

      In the article and the 26 comments that followed, not a single person mentioned epigenetics. One of the most interesting and promising fields to explain these kinds of issues. When is epigenetics going to be taken seriously in discussions?

      Only if we can acknowledge environmental causes, including cross-generationally though epigenetics, will we be able to change those environmental factors. But if we assume that it is a part of cognitive diversity, should we continue to expose kids to toxins and such in order to maintain this cognitive diversity? Is it a child’s right to have environmental factors forced upon them to cause them to become autistic so that we don’t have to feel uncomfortable talking about cures?

      Also, what about environmental factors that might not just alter epigenetics but also alter genetics. We have this simplistic notion that environment and genetics are two separate things. And that if there is any genetic or cross-generational component, then we must treat it as fatalism or else as a gift from God.

  85. I am autistic and I don’t care. I honestly would jump for joy if a cure was found. This illness, this disease–yes, I dared call it those words! Sue me!–ruins my life every day. I would give my arm for a cure. I have never seen anything that Autism Speaks says that didn’t ring true for me, and I support everything they do. I AM AUTISTIC AND I SUPPORT AUTISM SPEAKS. SUE ME!

    Log in to Reply
    thecaffeinatedautistic on March 27, 2015 at 9:42 pm
    No, I won’t sue you for your personal stance. I will say that you don’t really give much of a crap about your fellow autistic people, the people who are like you, if you don’t care what we have to say. I don’t think every aspect of Autism is awesome all the time. But I’d rather be respected for my humanity rather than disrespected and told it’d be better if my family tortured or killed me.

    • This person appears to be suffering from a strange mental disease and I don’t think it has anything to do with autism. No one in their right mind would think the first comment was advocating torture and murder. The second comment is disconnected from reality to the point of paranoia.

  86. Autism Speaks is the most influential autism advocacy organization in the world, bringing in nearly $50 million in donations in 2013. It spends $15.3 million on scientific research, mostly looking for the root neurological and genetic causes of autism.

    “Some of the research would stop us from being born, as it has with Down syndrome,” Grace said.

    In contrast, the organization spent just $4.6 million on “family services” grants, which fund programs aiming to improve the care, education, and employment of autistic people.

    “It would be wonderful if they spent money on things like helping poorer people with autism get job support and communication support, like iPads,” Grace added. She wishes Autism Speaks would listen to one of its slogans, “It’s time to listen.”

    • If the genetic, epigenetic, and environmental causes were ‘cured’ or prevented, then there would be no need to worry about how poor people are impacted by autism. Instead, all the money paid to accomodate people with autism could be better spent on helping all poor people. It’s not as if poor people need one more thing, autism or otherwise, to make their life even more difficult. Getting an iPad won’t make being a poor autistic suck any less, especially for severe autistics with low IQ.

    • I checked out the comments section. Then I checked back out again.

      If someone is a smart, talented and unique person with autism, they’d probably still be a smart, talented and unique person when a ‘cure’ came along to deal with all the problems that make their lives miserable or else make the lives of other people miserable.

      Wouldn’t be awesome if there was a ‘cure’ for the emotional breakdowns and social awkwardness? Or does every autistic have a right to have public meltdowns that disrupt other people’s lives? What about the rights of those other people?

      Identifying with one’s social problems is like a patient identifying with their cancer or their diabetes, as if that is what defines them as a person. It’s plain bizarre.

  87. Disabled advocates confuse the fuxk out of me. First people like academic tell me I should say “people with disabilities” and not “disabled people” but them there’s this

    Peggy Derr: What do you think this uproar is?!?! This IS us autistic people advocating for ourselves. We are TIRED of false people saying they advocate for us, only to act as though we are a scourge upon the earth! We are TIRED of people correcting us when we say we are autistic people and saying we should say people with autism instead. That STRIPS us of OUR identity. We are TIRED of people saying we need to be ‘cured’ There IS NO CURE! However, there are living breathing people who want to live life as independently as possible. Some of us are able to be completely independent without help from others. Some of us need some help, and some of us need A LOT and are unable to live independently. Some of us can communicate effectively without external aids of any kind. Some need to have Some aids, and others rely on external aids exclusively. There are many of us, and we are as varied as ‘normal’ people. Hell, instead of calling autism a neurological disorder, how about we call it a neurological variance. Because that is exactly what autism is. a VARIANCE. We are advocating for ourselves, and for others who cannot. We are speaking against those who would unjustly use us and our variance to line their pocketbooks with money from people made desperate for ‘cures’ because of propaganda and fear-mongering. Hell, there is a group of people who are shoving chlorine dioxide down their child’s throats and giving them enemas of this shit because of the fear mongering. It needs to stop. We want and need acceptance.

    • It’s identity politics. It doesn’t have to be rational and consistent. That isn’t the point. It’s us versus them. That is how groupthink works. It doesn’t matter the identity that is being obsessed over. It’s the same dynamic and plays out the same way. I understand the attraction of identity politics, but it can end up being counterproductive, not to mention irritating. Anyone who attempts to be an ‘ally’ will be attacked the most viciously, if they don’t utterly submit to the group.

  88. Autism research can get into murky ethical waters, however, when — as a result of failure to critically examine the biased assumptions that pervade our society — the primary goal is to force conformity on a minority population. I believe that researchers have an ethical obligation to consult with autistic individuals to determine their preferences, while respecting the validity of the autistic culture.

    There are many biased assumptions that often go unnoticed, as Cliff Schumacher pointed out in his comment. When a capable, well-educated autistic person cannot get a job because today’s hiring managers prefer applicants who do not appear autistic in the interview, this is just as discriminatory as a refusal to hire applicants who belong to any other minority group. It should be dealt with by improving the scope and enforcement of anti-discrimination laws, not by altering the brains of autistic people to make their speech patterns and body language become more acceptable to the intolerant.


    Reply to abfhQuote abfh
    Thank you for your comment.
    Submitted by Lindsay M Oberman Ph.D. on July 6, 2008 – 2:42pm
    Thank you for your comment. I would hope (and know to be true in my own research) that the “primary goal” is NOT to force conformity on a minority population, but rather to understand brain differences that result in developmental disorders and hopefully help those who want it. As a research subject you ALWAYS have the option to not participate and to understand what (if any) direct benefit you will get from your participation.
    Reply to Lindsay M Oberman Ph.D.Quote Lindsay M Oberman Ph.D.
    I think it would be relevant
    Submitted by Anonymous on July 3, 2008 – 9:07pm
    I think it would be relevant to point out to your readers that there is a growing consensus in the scientific community against dividing autism and Asperger’s. Tony Attwood, no slouch as far as ASD issues go, has stated that the scientific literature does not justify separate diagnostic categories (www.tonyattwood.com.au/articles/pdfs/attwood1.pdf (link is external)). My understanding is that the DSM-V may do away with the distinction.
    Reply to AnonymousQuote Anonymous
    This is certainly a debated
    Submitted by Lindsay M Oberman Ph.D. on July 6, 2008 – 2:45pm
    This is certainly a debated topic (see my previous entry on Asperger’s and Autism and the differences between them). Without having an objective nonbehavioral measure of autism, it is hard to say conclusively whether it is one disorder or two, or even several biological factors that lead to the same behavioral outcome is unclear.
    Reply to Lindsay M Oberman Ph.D.Quote Lindsay M Oberman Ph.D.
    Submitted by Anonymous on July 3, 2008 – 10:25pm
    As a high functioning autistic with a speech delay who went to special education schools for 8 years, has had trouble holding down a job, I must add my $.02 to the neurodiversity movement. First off, there is no evidence that einstein or gates had any autistic traits. I feel I have debunked that theory in my essay, http://www.jonathans-stories.com/non-fiction/undiagnosing.html (link is external) This is just another ploy of the neurodiversity movement.

    They are not at all representative of most on the autistic spectrum. The vast majority of them are females in spite ofa 4:1 ratio of males to females consistently reported in the literature. Many of them were not diagnosed well into adulthood, and only when they had children on the spectrum. Many of them hold down jobs and function well in society.

    I am 52 and never had a girlfriend and am unemployed. They claim they are advocating for human rights, but it seems to me all they do is start internet wars and insult people who don’t agree with them, funding organizations for curing autism, parents who are trying to help those kids and the rare pro-cure autistic person who publically writes on the internet trying to show them for what they are.
    Reply to AnonymousQuote Anonymous
    Thank you for your comment.
    Submitted by Lindsay M Oberman Ph.D. on July 6, 2008 – 2:51pm
    Thank you for your comment. My point in mentioning Bill Gates and Albert Einstein was to suggest that there are certain skills and abilities that often are “supernormal” in people with ASD and therefore would not want to be lost while trying to improve the behavioral deficits.
    Reply to Lindsay M Oberman Ph.D.Quote Lindsay M Oberman Ph.D.
    Regarding: Gender bias
    Submitted by Sia on June 23, 2015 – 11:48am
    Is that to do with actual genetics or is it do with females not getting diagnosed though?

    Like how women don’t get diagnosed with heart attacks as often as they should because the textbook is literally written on how heart attacks present in men.
    Reply to SiaQuote Sia
    “fixed” vs. acceptance
    Submitted by LarryG on July 5, 2008 – 5:42pm
    I agree with you that there is a neural basis for AS. I believe the disorder requires much more than just increasing society’s tolerance for neurodiversity.

    In fact, the controversy just goes on, with many strident opinions and different points of view. I believe that fact itself shows that whether we are parents, patients, educators, or researchers, we are very far from knowing what the exact nature of the disorder is, and the best way to handle it, for any specific individual.

    So, sure, your research is vital for that purpose, and your willingness to examine the ethical issues should be complimented. My point is that the individual parent, called to a meeting with school principal, etc., is told “All experts agree..” and “we must diagnose your child in order to help them..”. These statements are opinions, not facts, in my opinion. That is the key to the controversy.

    My opinion is that a less conclusive attitude, and more regard for the differences in individual kids, and a recognition that we don’t have all the answers, might be the quickest route to the deeper understanding needed to bring people together. That is the message I get from Mr. Solomon’s article.
    Reply to LarryGQuote LarryG
    Thank you for your comment.
    Submitted by Lindsay M Oberman Ph.D. on July 6, 2008 – 2:57pm
    Thank you for your comment. Yes, the true answer is WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT CAUSES AUTISM OR HOW TO CURE IT. We have theories, we have data to support and reject specific theories, but each child is different and there is no ONE answer for every child. The best thing we can do is keep an open mind and continue to head toward better understanding.
    Reply to Lindsay M Oberman Ph.D.Quote Lindsay M Oberman Ph.D.
    You know…
    Submitted by Anonymous on July 16, 2008 – 5:24pm
    …you really just end up sounding condescending and foolish when you speak in all capital letters, as if that will somehow better communicate what you want to get across.
    Reply to AnonymousQuote Anonymous
    Interesting post…having
    Submitted by nachtus01 on September 17, 2008 – 3:21am
    Interesting post…having aspergers, there are days, lol. i think it comes down to this.
    What I want, is to be me.
    I don’t think i want to be cured, maybe not even treated.
    There are days, when i do wish i understood social cues better, but then again, there are days that, I’m glad i don’t.
    Ultimately, I don’t know if you could ever cure AS for the better.
    The only reason I say this, is because even some of my “quirks”, the ones that make me “weird”, are beneficial to me, whether you understand them or not.
    For example, i do all my “best thinking”, when I pace. usually, i also tend to use hand gestures, and mumble, or even talk out loud while i do this.
    I have no doubt that this makes me look weird to some, totally nuts to others, but if i cant pace, verbalize, and use those hand gestures, i cannot seem to get into the deep thought processes I need to solve many of the deeper problems that i sometimes face.
    So, while you might be able to treat/cure that someday, in doing so, you would break me too.
    I already know what its like to “feel” broken. Please don’t make me “be” broken.
    Reply to nachtus01Quote nachtus01
    another dilemma…
    Submitted by Amanda on September 20, 2008 – 12:36pm
    One of the big dilemmas facing autistic people on the other hand, is a bit different:

    If we are unable to speak, or unable to get people to listen to us, we are automatically put in one category, by others. This category is not necessarily considered ‘low functioning’, although it can be. But the ultimate uniting factor among this category is, that it is then often presumed that those of us put into that category are best served by the agendas of relatively mainstream professional or parent groups.

    If we are able to speak, or otherwise able to get people to listen to us, we are put into a different category. We are presumed to be competent in all areas. We are presumed to be aligned in various other ways with the categories “high functioning” or “Asperger’s”, even if this is not the diagnostic status we actually have. We are deliberately kept separate from those in the other category, even if the difference between us and those in the other category is nothing at all innate, and even if we have been in both categories at different points in our lives. We are told that it might be okay to extend acceptance to us, but not to others, even if the line between ‘us’ and ‘others’ is in reality non-existent or blurry. We might also be declared non-autistic or ‘diagnosed’ (usually via Internet, which is not an accurate method of diagnosis) with some other condition, usually one that people are very prejudiced against such as various psychiatric disorders.

    Cal Montgomery wrote an excellent critique of this categorization scheme (as applied to disabled people in general, not just autistic people) in an article called Critic of the Dawn (link is external).

    Anyway, we are usually lost under these categories, and most people considering ethical questions never actually question the reality of these things. Mostly they see what their minds tell them to see, which might not be the same as what is actually there, given the very entrenched stereotypes that guide most people’s perception of disabled people in general.

    I have been in situations where nobody would believe I could have written what I am writing right now. Once it was declared in front of me by a medical professional (not a diagnostician, but still someone with power at the time) that I clearly had the mind of an infant, if that. This led to all kinds of discriminatory treatment, while I looked on, unable to prove otherwise, until my regular doctor came in and contradicted the guy. I am confident that if you showed this comment to the people who have seen me that way, they would not believe I wrote it. Especially given that in some such circumstances, even if I wrote something in front of them (with nobody touching me or anything, and typing faster than most of them could), they looked around to see where the trick was instead of believing I was writing.

    I have also been in situations where I could provide a little more superficial veneer of normality, and other people provided a whole lot of context in which every single autistic trait was passed of as something else entirely, which caused them to be unable to see all the autistic traits as actually related to each other (an online friend of mine calls this the difference slot (link is external), where if people already see you as one kind of different, all other aspects of you that are odd are presumed to be because of that difference. At any rate, a combination of me being a little better at some things at some times in my life, and the difference slot effect, has also at times created perceptions that there would be no way I was autistic. (Although a significant number of people who knew me at those times in my life reacted to my autism diagnosis with “So that’s what was going on” so this perception was far from universal.)

    As an autistic person, many times I am not allowed to have those two experiences in the same lifetime, or even at the same time (or on the same day at different times, etc.), and I am punished for having both experiences.

    I find that when I am, as Cal put it (read her article for the reference) mistaken for “Bruce,” then my opinions are discounted as non-existent and people assume that I would want whatever mainstream autism organizations want for me. If I do get opinions across at all, people assume that someone else is putting words in my mouth.

    When I am mistaken for “Mary,” then my opinions are discounted as irrelevant to the “real” or “severe” autistic people who are right then being put into the “Bruce” category. People assume that I am “very high-functioning” in all areas (usually they have a list of traits that I supposedly don’t have), or that I am not autistic at all but just want to make trouble.

    The categories are seen as real, and as mutually exclusive. Those of us who straddle both are either shoved into one or the other against our will, or else considered incredibly suspect. It is not recognized that these are, as Cal points out, caricatures, they are not the real people.

    Real people of course have varied opinions no matter what category we are in, and when people (even us ourselves) assume that our opinions stem from our being categorized one way or another, they are denying us the fact that we have minds that can consider information and come to different conclusions based on something other than our “functioning level”. Some of us view disability in one manner, some in another, and some in still another.

    By the way, I am not anti-science either. I am in fact becoming involved with scientists myself. Some of it is an attempt to get autistic-friendly communication aids to autistic people who need them. A number of autistic people who do not want autism itself eradicated, are involved, ourselves, in parts of the research community, and believe that some of what we do will be of assistance to other autistic people. There are of course a huge number of ways to assist autistic people without the goal being for us to be less autistic or non-autistic. Autistic people, after all, grow and change, just on a different trajectory than most people. Remaining autistic in no way means stagnation, lack of learning, or lack of growth.

    I am sorry for the length of the comment, and it seems you are not necessarily trying to put us into those categories. But I thought you should be aware that this is the dilemma autistic people face when we want to speak out, especially if we speak out against beliefs that many people with power cherish and hold dear. (That seems to be the time at which the personal attacks come out, as well as the people trying hard to divide us and assume what our lives are like and why.)
    Reply to AmandaQuote Amanda
    No Idea
    Submitted by laurentius-rex on January 11, 2009 – 5:59pm
    You simply have no idea do you?

    At one time an academic researcher, a philosopher, a scientist was someone who not only knew their own field but was au fait with literature and the arts, politics and society generally, someone who with a measure of support could undertake the rigours of any academic field.

    You and your colleagues have fallen far from that ideal in my opinion to the point at which one wonders just how much external and ecological validity your studies do have when considered from a wider perspective outside of your own narrow ken?

    I think I know autism (yes the whole spectrum) a great deal better than you do because I engage it from a civil rights perspective. You are so full of stereotypes. Yes I do as a researcher myself know all about the rigmarole one has to go through for approval, but I am not studying for idle curiosity or vainglory, I am studying to improve the lot of my people, who you continue to do down with your patronising attitudes. Helping us indeed!!!!! helping yourself in our name more like.

    You just would not know. Try studying sociology or philosophy to broaden your outlook a little.
    Reply to laurentius-rexQuote laurentius-rex
    Thank you for your
    Submitted by Lindsay M. Oberman, PhD on January 11, 2009 – 7:14pm
    Thank you for your perspective. I am sorry you have such a negative view of researchers.
    Reply to Lindsay M. Oberman, PhDQuote Lindsay M. Oberman, PhD
    No cure for Asperger’s
    Submitted by hcantrall on January 17, 2009 – 9:23am
    As the mother of a son with Asperger’s and the daughter of a man I believe to also have Asperger’s, I don’t like to call it a disorder. This may be my personal hang up but I honestly don’t see anything *wrong* with them. I don’t see it as a disorder, that term makes it sound like it is something to be fixed or cured and I don’t believe it needs to be or should be. I believe Asperger’s “Syndrome” is just a different way of being. Or a different *wiring* as others have mentioned and I do think it is genetic. I wouldn’t change my son for anything though, if someone offered me a *cure* right now, I wouldn’t want it and I don’t think he wants it. This is who he is.
    Just because the *normal* people label him as different doesn’t mean he is broken and needs a cure or to be fixed.
    Reply to hcantrallQuote hcantrall
    reply to No Cure for Asperger’s
    Submitted by Lindsay Oberman on January 20, 2009 – 3:56pm
    Thank you for your perspective. Many people feel the way you do and I agree for many individuals with Asperger’s Syndrome their “deficits” do not pose a major problem in their lives. They are able to live fulfilling, productive, lives. However, for many the deficits are real road blocks in their abilities to make friends, hold down jobs, meet mates, etc. And many lower functioning individuals have difficulties even in the most basic communicative skills. This is part of the problem in lumping the various levels of functioning together under one name. Clearly there is a spectrum here and it is not our goal as scientists to “fix” everyone to be whatever is deemed as “normal”. Rather, it is to have a better understanding of the disorder (or syndrome if you prefer) so that those that need or want treatment can receive treatment that actually targets the cause of the behavioral difficulties rather than the symptoms.
    Reply to Lindsay ObermanQuote Lindsay Oberman
    Two weeks ago I realized that
    Submitted by Anonymous on March 1, 2009 – 12:32pm
    Two weeks ago I realized that my father probably has Aspergers. I started reading online, and read that it presents differently in girls – the description given was a very close match for me in certain aspects. I feel a mix of devastation, shock, grief. All my life I have been hurt by my father’s apparent rejection of me and coldness towards me and other members of our family, but it all looks so different now. Everything about him is such a close match to the descriptions of Aspergers that I have been reading. It makes me wonder, if you took the syndrome away, what would be left? Who is he underneath all that? Who am I?

    If this TMS thing can switch on the parts of my brain that are not working, then I want it. I want to be able to read social behaviour automatically. I want to be aware of the emotional content of a sentence. In the past I have offended or upset people by saying something which to me was a statement of fact, but in which they perceived negative emotional content of which I was unaware.
    I want to be able to carry on a social conversation that isn’t about anything and goes nowhere in particular. Etc etc etc.
    Reply to AnonymousQuote Anonymous
    Reply to Anonymous
    Submitted by Lindsay Oberman on July 6, 2009 – 10:12am
    If you are interested in our research, feel free to contact our lab. Our website is tmslab.org
    Reply to Lindsay ObermanQuote Lindsay Oberman
    RE: no cure for asperger’s
    Submitted by Anonymous on July 4, 2009 – 9:42pm
    thank you for posting, hcantrall. i, too, am on the spectrum at various levels, and wish not to be “cured” of the way in which i view the world around me.
    Reply to AnonymousQuote Anonymous
    Reply to “No cure for Asperger’s”
    Submitted by Lindsay Oberman on July 6, 2009 – 10:25am
    I think that it is highly unlikely that if and when a “cure” becomes available that anyone would be forced to partake in it. Our research is designed to better understand the underlying brain mechanisms so that we can develop better treatments for those who are interested.
    Reply to Lindsay ObermanQuote Lindsay Oberman
    Theory to explain Asperger/Autism
    Submitted by Anonymous on February 6, 2010 – 1:05am
    Dr Oberman,

    I have built a theoretical model to explain Asperger/Autism, in which I have actual diagrammatic representations of Asperger/Autistic cognition wrt to cognition of non-Autistic variants and I am predicting mental condition(s) that maybe diametric opposite to Autism.

    I am not a scientist, but have a Technology and Business Strategy background and my model borrows from concrete Business Concepts – Capitalism to build a model and proxy evolution.

    As I am not a medical professional, it has become exceedingly difficult to show case my work. Please suggest how best can I get someone’s attention.

    Appreciate your feedback!
    Reply to AnonymousQuote Anonymous
    Just Pretend Nothing is Wrong?
    Submitted by Anonymous on March 7, 2010 – 7:35pm
    I don’t know why, but I don’t understand why people in the Autism Community does not want to do anything about it. Being on the Spectrum myself, I wish autism were just being weird, but unfortunately it isn’t. You are the perfect target of bullying, you’re very vulnerable, people can take advantage of you, you hurt other people’s feelings unknowingly, and many other things. Autism comes with high IQs and photographic memories just for a few lucky Autistics, not everyone. I have only an average IQ and on top of that I have learning disabilities. Can’t focus, very slow to get things done. I work very hard on getting tasks done such as school work, work assignments, and just getting organized, and I accomplish less than most people who put less effort than me. No, these people are not on the AS. They are very social and streetwise. I hate AS, but I don’t hate myself. I highly value my sense of moral and ethics, being a hard worker, and being good at math (not outstanding, but better than really sucking at it). I also take responsibility for my actions and never used AS as an excuse. Whenever people come to me and either say directly and/or imply that what I did and/or said is inappropriate, I say I’m sorry and do my best to correct my mistake. I also teach myself social skills, so I know how to approach people without being creepy and making them uncomfortable. I believe that we should adapt to the World, not the World to us. The handicapped (physically and mentally) at least make an effort to adapt to the World. The physically handicapped accept using wheelchairs rather than making people carry them around and spoon feeding them. The mentally handicapped also use their limited intelligence to learn new things and try to do as much as possible for themselves. If they have to compensate for their difficulties, we do too. The World does not revolve around AS. If we act as the World revolve around us, it is going to be unlikely that society will accept us. Communication and relationship is supposed to be two-sided, not one-sided. If you put yourself (at least give a try) on other people’s shoes, you will understand how people feel when their opinion is not respected and have their rights violated. Don’t get me wrong, I know that many AS people do their best to be respectful and considerate. But those few that act as if they are the center of the World is actually hurting the AS community, not helping. Love yourselves for who you are, but remember AS is not a personality, its a condition that keep you from showing the World who you really are.
    Reply to AnonymousQuote Anonymous
    This is political correctness to the extreme
    Submitted by Anonymous on November 25, 2011 – 1:33pm
    Kudos to Anon above (not me, and not the science geek before that who needs to stop building models and get a life). All too often the weirdos in the ASD “community” (I thought these were all nerds with imaginary friends?) makes excuses for their outlandish behavior and outright laziness by saying, “oh, but I have A$$burger’s.” (Yeah, so what, now get off your a$$ and go flip burgers.) The safety net (read: spoiled entitlement) of disability anti-discrimination statutes has given a lot of these wastrels an easy way out of responsibility. Good to see whoever that person is above not falling into the same pu$$y trap.

    But “neurodiversity”? Just another stupid attempt at political correctness, if you ask me. Wrong Planet Uranus and A$$h0les for Freedom remind me of the NAMBLA sickos who defended the kiddie-diddler Catholic priests, and are probably organizing an “Occupy Penn State” defense of Jerry Sandusky right now. Riiiight, because pedophilia is just an alternate way of “loving” your children.

    Seems nowadays everyone’s got to have a “pride” movement, and this whole thing about diversity, I think is out of control. I’m certainly not one for forcing women back into the kitchen, bringing back slavery, building concentration camps or raiding Stonewall, but sheesh, do we really have to give everyone “equal treatment” and laissez-faire “acceptance,” even the clinically insane, the profoundly retarded, and yes, the fap-happy flappers we consider “so speshul” for being able to recite the Chinese alphabet backwards, but who live in mom’s basement at 35 years old playing World of Warcraft and refusing to be potty-trained? Since when did giving a geek a wedgie and stuffing him/her in a high school locker become a hate crime?

    And “you betcha” (a la that retarded Alaskan Bullworm and mother of another retarded Repugnican), I see nothing wrong with depriving the world of Bill Gates or Albert Einstein. Allegedly brilliant but apparently so retarded they can’t even tolerate getting a damn decent haircut. Maybe if Gates went out and played sports, got beat up a little and toughened up rather than diddling with himself and his junior chemistry set, we probably wouldn’t have the Internet. Sure wouldn’t have an abundance of computers in every home, and you know what, we got along just fine for thousands of years without Cheeseburger videos and that damn talking paperclip. Einstein, all he gave us was his stupid theory, and you know what we got from it? The H-bomb and plastic. Both of which, I would say, could possibly play a BIG part in the skyrocketing rate of “baby Einsteins” (aka Idiocracy) that society has suffered since WWII.

    So no, I don’t think it should be accepted as an “alternate way of life” just like I don’t think “zooism” (the politically correct way of saying bestiality) should be accepted as an “alternate way of relationships,” nor cannibalism as an “alternate way of eating.” Used to be that mad scientists like Dollar Bill and Crazy Uncle Albert In a Can were demonized and feared as sociopathic, “calculating” (hence the Asspee love of mathematics versus the creative arts), and just downright evil. Now they’re an asset to society? Neurodiversity, in my definitely-definitely not so humble opinion, is nothing more than an alternate way of being stupid.
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    • Trump is the best thing that has happened for the political left in a long time. He says blatant what everyone knows is believed by so many Republicans and right-wingers. It forces the bigotry to the surface. Political correctness normally hides such hate and ugliness. It’s almost a breath of fresh air to finally hear a bigot be honest and do so in the mainstream media. I take it as a step forward for our entire society. We can only deal with what we are willing to utter. Trump’s opinions being voiced are like the opening up of a smelly putrid wound. It’s the only way to clean it out.

    • I wonder about the intersectionality of gender and race/ethnicity in media. I’ll have to play closer attention to that.

      I immediately think of a show like Heroes where one of the main protagonists who dreams of being a hero is a Asian male named Hiro. Not only that but he ends up being quite the masculine badass in his fighting skills. But maybe that show is unusual.

      It makes me curious. I’m just not sure magazines are a good focus. As one person pointed out, physical magazines will skew toward older generations. It would be better to look at the gender and racial/ethnic breakdown of tv shows and movies.

  89. It doesn’t matter what the person’s ethnicity is because if they don’t at least respect their own culture/race then they can never be a whole person mentally or emotionally. All the racial self loathing will come out later in life especially when the looks fade and the fetish novelty wears out in these relationships.

    I’ve met and dated many people who are hapa (mixed white/asian) who either hated one part of their family or both. They were raised with all the insecurities and baggage of the asian parent and the hidden racism/prejudice of the white parent. It’s like a double dose of race complex.

    One positive thing about being asian male at least is that society does tend to naturally weed out the headcases, gold diggers, and extremely low self esteem women for us. These women are not drawn to Asian-American men at all because they are looking for image and status. I have realized that women who are truly open to dating based on the individual and not race status/stereotypes are very self assured and comfortable in their skin. This type of quality woman (or man) is not common. People tend to date stereotypes in America. White women want the black thug stereotype to turn to them out. White men want the asian submissive stereotype. Minorities play into these roles. Asian men really have no positive male stereotypes in America so women either look at us on the individual level or not at all.

  90. Wow. Shit is serious. I read a blog post about a bw who’s living in Asia. And she was commenting on how the wm there were being really mean and racist, they couldn’t believe that a bw was travelling in Asia. They were making snide remarks, saying that she was ugly right in front of her with these Asian women of theirs. Anyway, this Asian man starting bitching in the comments section about how he’d get all the Asian gangs, the triad, Yazuko (I know I spelt it wrong) to beat up the white dudes who were taking their women. He’s going on about how Asia is the last hope for Asian men, and how other races should stop going to Asia to get with their women. That the Asian women in Asia were the last hope for Asian men and that Asia is for Asian men only. Unfortunately for him and the other Happier Abroad guy, it seems like wm are KANGS in Asia. Even a black guy was bitching about how bm couldn’t get play in Asia. Shit is bananas, man.
    Reply With Quote
    11-06-2013, 02:49 PM #156
    Jodie Landon

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    Re: What’s really going on with Asian women?
    Originally Posted by Oga at the top
    Wow. Shit is serious. I read a blog post about a bw who’s living in Asia. And she was commenting on how the wm there were being really mean and racist, they couldn’t believe that a bw was travelling in Asia. They were making snide remarks, saying that she was ugly right in front of her with these Asian women of theirs. .
    Who cares what those insecure white men have to say. Most of the white men who go with asian women are homely looking nerds from what I have noticed. . Is this what some women in Asia find most desirable?

    Reply With Quote
    Big Daddy . Bettie Page . 11-06-2013, 03:00 PM #157
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    Re: What’s really going on with Asian women?
    Yeah, I bet it’s those insecure wm escaping from the “evil Western women”. Basically, they’re taking their rejection out on innocent black owomen. They basically think that they own and rule Asia and now they have a problem with black women also travelling there.

  91. ”Chinese seem to confuse their race with their nationality. Their loyalties are therefore questionable”


  92. These comments basically PROVe the point wtf.

    I guess you can tell I have little love for hypocritical westerners. FYI China has been no crueler to Africa than the west. if anything China is treating africa better than the west treated them under colonialism

    ”While there is no doubt about Canada’s racist history towards Chinese, East Indians & First Nations that is NO longer the Mainstream.

    Instead Communist China & it’s supporters are practising Racism and indeed Genocide (TIBET) on a Global basis.

    In Africa Communist China Government supported Resource Development live in GATED ETHNIC HAN ONLY Compounds, ditto in some parts of South America.

    In Canada Communist China is using Corporate Law & the new Trade Treaty with Canada to give it’s Communist State Controlled Companies (Any Company large or Small must toe the Communist Party line and be a SERVANT of the Communist Party).

    Communist China & most Communist Han Chinese are supporters of the Racist and Anti-Immigrant policy in China.

    Canada vs China Racism.

    I find it illogical to tie in the Union movement which is based upon a long history of poor immigrant labour to Racism.

    In fact the Unions are fighting for Canadians rights vs ANY Foreign Corporate Import Labour.

    Mr. Wong makes Factual events sound like Racism and/or slights against ‘Chinese People’ when that’s simply not the Case.

    For example mostly wealthy by Canadian standards Hong Kong Chinese migrated in to Canada in the 1990’s fearing the Communist China takeover of Hong Kong.

    In FACT that and the subsequent mainland wealthy Chinese buying property DID and DOES drive up Property Prices more than it would otherwise.

    Perhaps Mr. Wong needs to reacquaint himself with Supply & Demand Economics 101.

    Communist China Threat.

    If Mr. Wong thinks that Communist China is not a great threat to Canada perhaps he has his head in the Sand.

    Mr. Wong China has specifically targeted Canada both Politically and Militarily by way of Cyber Warfare infiltrating Canada’s almost ALL of Canada’s I.T Government Infrastructure.

    Politicly Communist China has put in place a wide range of DUAL Citizens who have Business & Communist Party Ties as Candidates in Canada Federal Elections across the Country from virtually all the major parties.

    Mr. Wong Chinese business in Canada employ mostly ethnic Chinese is that not Racist?

    Mr. Wong why do you GLOSS OVER & NOT Call to Account the violations of Racism & Human Rights by Communist China? Afraid it may hurt business?

    No one is suggesting that Canada is perfect & some racism does not exist but Canada is FAR more tolerant than most Countries and your examples are Bogus.

    18563Rating: +122
    Feb 7, 2013 at 10:24am
    Well it seems the Tension currently is stemming from housing prices? I mean friends of the family are from China and have bought three houses over the last 10years, all over million and one in point grey now. And well since our family was born in Canada we cant afford houses in Vancouver. But that being said i’d move here too, but look at Orange County California, thats a major destination of asian people too, the huge local mall had as many asians as richmond. And if you read what is happening do you blame them for leaving their country? where ownership of property is not allowed but borroed from Government for a set number of years [usually 99] so you cant leave anything to your children

    Because I doubt people are complaining about inexpensive dinners at dimsum places or what not

    7299Rating: -27
    Mark Bowen
    Feb 7, 2013 at 10:46am
    Bullshit that this is about racism. What a weak ass diversion attempt.

    This is about China the COUNTRY (and handing over our resource wealth to them so that a handful of Canadian investors can get insanely rich to the detriment of the rest of our nation), NOT Chinese PEOPLE, period.

    21561Rating: +154
    Feb 7, 2013 at 11:00am
    Reading through the comments above, I find that no one agree with the rise of anti-Chinese sentiment, and yet all of these comments are left by apparent non-Chinese readers.

    73161Rating: -88
    Feb 7, 2013 at 11:02am
    White Canadians will always be racist against Chinese. Its a fact. luckily we are strong in numbers here in Vancouver so we arent afraid.

    78263Rating: -185
    Victor Wong
    Feb 7, 2013 at 11:10am
    There is an anti-China bias in much of the mainstream reporting today and this leads to racialization of issues and anti-Chinese sentiment here in Canada.

    Back in 2011, a little girl in China was run over by a vehicle and passersby ignored her. There were at least 8 differnt stories about this on CNN. Workers ignored an Ontario woman who was injured in front of a local hospital – I saw one story in the Toronto Star.

    Numerous news stories quote China as a rising power which sounds like a line out of The Lord of the Rings. The reality is that 200 years ago, China and India made up more than 60% of the world’s GDP and this was the reason that Britain and other European countries sought trade ideology arrangements, then concessions, and then unfair treaties. A racist ideology emerged from this period and exists in our attitudes and approaches today.

    The anti-China bias crowds out the real controversy around the Chinese coal mine investments. Should BC be extracting carbon-print-coal for export? I’m not sure if we’ve had a proper debate about this. If exports are ok – presumably for the jobs and economic benefits, then should Canadian workers be hired and trained for these jobs? The foreign temporary worker’s program has become a subsidy for companies where they are able to recruit workers from overseas, legally pay them up to 15% less than Canadian workers and avoid training cost for local workers. Such a strategy at this point in the economic cycle where there is a labour surplus (ie. 5 unemployed workers for every job vacancy in Canada) is bound to generate resentment.

    One solution is to call a timeout and get all the stakeholders – the company, the federal, provincial and municipal authorities and the unions into one mediation, one that respects Canadian workers.

    Victor Wong
    Chinese Canadian National Council

    107163Rating: -56
    Feb 7, 2013 at 11:59am
    from what I see – many are brainwashed from years of Communist programming, unable to think, socialize and contribute like many westerners have been brought up in Democracy. China is not very compatible with Canadian values system of Democracy and thus Canadian immigration should be directed to democratic countries like the commmonwealth and South America. In my experience at work and in school the Chinese were not keen to learn Canadian culture or make friends outside of the Asian culture, nor did they display much desire to do so. Coming to Canada is more than getting off a plane and acting as thought you are still in your old country. I expect it will get worse in Canada with Canadians demanding the govt change immigration policy. A friend whose parents immigrated in 1960 seemed to integrate quite well – why are those coming now failing to do so?

    15769Rating: +88
    Feb 7, 2013 at 12:01pm
    There are two sides of this situation. Yes there are a lot of idiot racists out there, who are singling out Chinese for questionable activities that many other groups do just as often. But, there are also legitimate reasons why people may have issues with Chinese immigration and business activity in BC.

    Take the environment issue for example. While this is of course a generalization, it is pretty apparent that Chinese-Canadians ON AVERAGE care less than your average Vancouverite about the environment. Styrofoam containers, unsustainable meat and seafood, it’s all on show at a higher proportion of Chinese restaurants than others.

    The problem is this kind of talk is not really allowed in public conversation in Canada, and so it becomes difficult to try to improve a problem that no one will publicly admit exists.

    I think we would do a lot to lower anti-Chinese sentiment if we were more open about communication, and then things wouldn’t quietly simmer so much, then leading to periodic outbursts that lead to accusations of BC being a “racist” place.

    Also, agree with others who say that it is very important for Chinese people to not play the race card and imply that criticism of the Chinese government and their horrific policies in African and elsewhere is simply out of racism. That will only cement negative attitudes towards them.

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