Zen Great Doubt, Existentialist Angst, and Gnostic Longing
MarmaladeOkay… Jim’s post stuck out to me because he mentioned existentialism and doubt. The context of the discussion that Jim is responding to is whether the belief in reincarnation provides mere consolation or whether it can be part of a transformative practice.
Integral Post-metaphysical Spirituality
Re: Translation versus Transformation
Jim said May 16, 9:17 AM:
Hi Kela.
In Victor Hori’s book on the Rinazi Koans, Victor interprets the Great Doubt (the death of meaning?) as a kind of “samadhi,” and what follows it (in which meaning is reconstituted?) as kensho or satori. I’ll post what he says in his intro at the enlightenment thread.
I look forward to reading it.
I’ve heard “Great Doubt” likened to Jaspers’ notion of the “Grenzsituation” or “boundary situation,” a condition or situation through which a person can neither escape nor transcend. Jaspers describes it as a cul-de-sac where the person can neither go forward nor backward forcing the person back on her own resources so that she experiences existential “Existenz.”
Hakuin (1689 – 1769), said of his own “Great Doubt” that “It was as though I were frozen solid in the midst of an ice sheet extending tens of thousands of miles. I could neither go forward nor retreat.”
Hakuin says that great doubt is like hanging over an abyss: “we have no where to go (really) but down – eventually we must all let go and jump – it is supposedly that act which propels us to the next level – to enlightenment. What would bring us to this point – where we are willing to give up the self? Does the fall into the abyss always result in enlightenment? How would we know? What do we have to give up or suspend to make such a leap?”
(I’m just cutting and pasting from some old notes.)
Cheers,
Jim
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I don’t wish to comment on whether reincarnation exists or its relation to transformative practice. Instead, I want to bring in another quote that connects to the theme of existentialism and doubt. The following is a quote of Eric G. Wilson from his book The Melancholy Android. Wilson, in speaking about Hans Jonas’ book The Gnostic Religion, has this to say(p. 68):
The greatest task of the fallen anthropos is not to work through his anxiety, alenation, and confusion. It is to keep his melancholia acute. His sadness corresponds to his readiness for gnosis. But the world conspires against his dejection, offering him either the brief comforts of matter or the more lasting solaces of soul. Hedonism seduces in the first case; orthodox religion in the second. The Gnostic must defend against the wretched contentment of these modes and hold open his wounds of the spirit. Malcontented with outward forms, he turns inward to his hidden spark. The spark, trapped and stifled, faintly flares, repeating in each flicker the homeward call.
And, in speaking about Martin Heidegger’s(Hans Jonas’ teacher) book Being and Time, writes:
For Heidegger. the only hope for authenticity — a secular, psychological equivalent of gnosis — is anxiety. Heideggerean angst, like Gnostic longing, performs a double function. On the one hand, it constitutes the basic mood through which one comes to understand one’s own authenticity; on the other, it forms the aggravating condition from which one flees to the collective. Heideggerean anxiety is directed toward the “nothing” of being in the world without the help of the mass. This condition descends when all familiar ideas fall away and one feels as if one hovers in an unfamiliar abyss. This unfocused floating can push the sufferer in one of two ways — either cravenly back to the lotus doses of the mass or courageously into possibilities for being. If one chooses the former path, one can never return to the ignorant bliss of the collective but spends long days neurotically attempting to repress the unsettling sense that existence is a sham. However, if one embraces the latter way, one undergoes an uncanny experience: insight into the relaionship between individual being and the Being of all beings.
Once one commits to understanding one’s connection to Being, one never rests but realizes that the profoundities of this origin are beyond comprehension. However, one also knows that this perpetual insecurity will lead to deeper intimacy with the abyss and a greater care for individual being and other beings. As we have seen, Heidegger in “What Is Metaphysis?” likens this chronic melancholia to a “bewildered sort of calm… a cheerfulness and gentleness of creative longing.”
Access: Public 
Marmalade 
Nicole said
hmm so unless we’re unhappy or anxious we are inauthentic! gotta love those existentialists. i’ve always been mystified by people who seem determined to concentrate on the negative – people who leave Gaia because it’s insipid, kumbaya chanting etc, people who seem to despise those who are happy and loving. anyway! thanks, it’s always interesting reading your blogs.
Marmalade said
Well, I may be focused on a slightly darker perspective. But I grew up with insipid, kumbaya chanting etc, and I have nothing against it. 🙂 For whatever reason, I’m one who feels motivated to look at all sides, both the positive and the negative. However, long-term severe depression does often tip me a little bit to the negative side. Fortunately, I have many people in my life(including you dear Nicole) who help me stay balanced.
I can’t say that I yet fully understand the perspective of the book I quoted. Of course, this is just one section in that book and it covers a lot of ideas. But part of what I liked about it is that the author began the section speaking about anxiety and ended it with a “bewildered sort of calm… a cheerfulness and gentleness of creative longing.” Its anxiety but not a brooding obsession over the void.
I didn’t include the end of this section of the book because I didn’t feel like typing more of it, but maybe I should have. The author also questions the difficulties of this view, and concludes:
“A middle way is required, a figure that both reminds of our fall and offers hope for rising.”
Marmalade said
I remember when I read Sartre in a college philosophy class. It was my first introduction to Existentialism and I just didn’t get it. His idea of freedom seemed rather empty and meaningless. What use could it be for someone trying to simply get by in life? As I saw it, Sartre lived daily facing possible death for the years he was a resistance fighter against the Nazis. If I was in that situation, then maybe his radical freedom for the sake of freedom would be a useful attitude. But under normal conditions it doesn’t seem overly desirable.
Nicole said
yes, about Sartre, same here, and I’m glad I help you balance! You are always extending my mind and making me mull over things I have not considered properly before.
Thanks for including more of the context. I like that calm, cheerfulness and gentleness of creative longing. And the middle way, Anglicans are big on Via Media 🙂
Marmalade said
BTW one of the things that factored into my joining Gaia was the positive vibe of the place. I’ve said before how I have a special place in my heart for those that dwell in the dark. However, as I was raised in New Thought, I also have a special place in my heart for positive thinking types obsessed with their silly ideals of love and happiness. 🙂
My thinking may not always be perfectly positive, but that way of viewing reality is a part of me. If I were to be critical of others for wanting to be happy and loving, then I’d have to criticize that part of me that wants the same.
So, I do like people that are more positive and places like this that attract such people. It does balance me. But its also challenging. On days when I’m feeling particularly down, I can feel irritated towards endless positivity and I have to repress an urge to start listing all the horrible things about life. Its just a mood, though, and it passes.
As I have these two seemingly opposing sides of me, this is why I’m attracted to the possibility of a middle way.
Nicole said
yes… I have great compassion for those who have left the site sickened by the kumbaya positiveness… we all need the middle way, the balance but very few of us know what that is. of all, i am one of the most extreme people i know, all or nothing, hot or cold, too passionate and intense about too much. i need balance and i need it now!
um…
sorry 🙂 LOL
and I have a special place in my heart for people like you Ben. Heck! I have a special place in my heart for you. period.
Marmalade said
I was wondering about this. Why does a place like this feel like a haven to some and to others makes them feel out of place? I remember how many INTPs were annoyed by the INFP discussion board because it was so light and fluffy, and the PC police were always on high alert. Many Thinking types didn’t feel comfortable and accepted on that board simply for being their natural selves.
I’d imagine that Gaia is dominated by Feeling types. And that, despite Gaia’s openness, its not equally open to all types(personality or otherwise)… reminds me a bit of Wilber’s criticism of the Mean Green Meme. For instance, if I were to guess, Naumadd is likely a Intuitive Thinking type. He presented himself as passionate about the truth. As he said, he meant no offense. I’m sure he meant quite the opposite. He probably sees himself as being helpful, but what seems helpful to one type won’t seem helpful to another type.
On the INTP board, nobody would’ve blinked at someone saying what he said. To an INTP, you can state something strongly as long as you state it rationally. They might challenge it, but they’d think it silly that one should worry about offending others simply when sharing what one sees as the truth… as how can there be anything more important than the truth? An INTP would be offended by irrationality and that seems to be what offended Naumadd about how he perceived others’ use of the term ‘evil’. On the other hand, many INFPs would be bothered by it being stated strongly and would consider the rationality to be secondary.
Balder said
Hi, Ben, I just noticed this blog “commentary” on the Translation and Transformation thread. I hope at some point you will contribute more to the conversations on my IPS pod, since I think the conversations there would benefit from a wider range of intellectual and spiritual flavors, and I appreciate what you have to say.
Best wishes,
B.
Marmalade said
Hello Balder, welcome to my blog. How’d ya find your way here?
I appreciate that you think I could add some ‘range’ to your IPS pod. Your pod is one of my favorite here and I’ve been wanting to contribute more. Maybe I was waiting for a thread where I felt more of a personal connection with my own thinking. There are two factors that contribute to my reticence. Its been several years since I seriously looked at Wilber’s work and it isn’t fresh in my mind. And I’m completely unfamiliar with many of the texts and schools of thought that are discussed by some people there.
I have posted some on your pod, but only a few times. I’m sure I’ll eventually post more thoroughly. However, it isn’t just reticence that keeps me from your pod, but also Nicole keeps me busy with her pod.
Balder said
Hi, Ben,
I enjoy your writings (I’ve read most of them on Nicole’s pod), so I occasionally click on your profile and check your blog. I think I saw you reference your blog recently on Jonny Bardo’s recent piece on scientific materialism (and alternatives to it), and that is what brought me here most recently.
Wilber does remain a strong focus on the IPS pod, since the purpose of the pod is to explore some of the ideas on postmetaphysical spirituality he has articulated in recent writings, but you may have noticed that a majority of the posters on my pod are actually fairly strongly critical of him (moreso than I am). So … as far as I’m concerned, being a Wilber-phile is certainly not a requirement.
In any event, I really appreciated your comments re: Seligman on Jonny’s blog. They resonate with a blog I’ve been planning to write, which has been pushing at the back of my mind in a protracted mental “labor.” Hopefully, the delivery will be soon…
Best wishes,
B.
Nicole said
Ben, you are a wonderful asset to any group where you participate actively… perhaps i have been greedy hoarding you for the God Pod 🙂 but I think it’s really your choice and you’ve been happy eh Ben?
so if you want to share yourself more broadly…
Marmalade said
Oh, ya haven’t been hoarding me Nicole and yes I post on your pod cuz I like it. I surely could make the time to post in the IPS pod. Part of my situation is that I try to keep my focus on my blogging because that was my original purpose for coming to Gaia. I’ve also been trying to comment more on other people’s blogs. And, in the process of becoming immersed in Gaia, I’ve unintentionally stopped posting on non-Gaian forums where I used to visit. So, time is limited… sadly. 😦
There are many reasons/excuses I have held back from the IPS pod.
I’m not usually aware how my thoughts might relate to integral post-metaphysical spirituality and haven’t felt inspired to try to figure it out. I most often don’t even come close to thinking in integral terms or about typical integral topics. And tell ya the truth I’m not always so sure about the whole post-metaphysical spirituality angle. I don’t know if my views are post-metaphysical or not. Is Philip K. Dick post-metaphysical? PKD’s ideas go off in a thousand different angles from metaphysics, but he doesn’t seem precisely post-metaphysical although he has strong post-modern leanings. And, either way, he wasn’t very integral.
I’m not modelling myself on PKD, but like him I’m more of a questioner. I don’t know what I am. And, despite my interest in integral, I don’t have a clear sense how integral relates to my everyday life.
The other thing is that the IPS discussions are so thorough and the responses so detailed. Its a bit daunting. For instance, I often don’t even know what my opinion is about what Kela talks about. I’m curious about it, but its a different headspace than my own cogitations. To communicate my views on the IPS pod, I feel I’d have to try to translate myself into some concepts I’m not perfectly fluent in… which I could do no doubt with a little effort.
I have been looking for an opportunity to post there, but probably not the Translation and Transformation thread. I have the pod on e-mail notification and so I’m actively watching all of the threads there. I’ll eventually find something there that really draws me in. I’m still fairly new to this whole Gaia thing. I’m just beginning to get my footing and to get a sense of the people here.
And in the time I took to write this response, I could’ve wrote a nice response in the IPS pod. 🙂
In time…
Nicole said
I confess to having the same sorts of reservations as you about the IPS discussions, as deeply as I admire the level of the dialogue there.
The God Pod currently works much better for me, not surprisingly since I set the tone and pace LOL
debyemm said
I haven’t read the comments yet but did read the blog and found it in the realm of a question and conversation I posted in the Living Metaphysics pod (http://pods.gaia.com/living_metaphysics/discussions/view/290287#296067) and which I linked to this blog and took some snippets from by way of illustration. Just wanted you to know.
Deborah
Marmalade said
Hey Debyemm! I noticed your comment here and I’ve been meaning to get to it. I’ve been very busy with family recently, but I’ll have more time this week to read the thread you linked.
Nicole, isn’t it interesting how Balder commented after the comment I made as if to emphasize my point? The PSI pod feels more NT versus your pod which feels more NF. I’m NF and I feel more comfortable in your pod even though I find the PSI pod very interesting. If the Translation and Transformation discussion had been posted in your pod, I’d certainly have posted in it many times by now.
I wish I felt more comfortable in the PSI pod. Maybe once I get to know the communication styles of the people there, I’ll feel comfortable enough to get more fully involved. But its likely that I’ll never feel fully comfortable in that pod.
It is rather significant that the most active members in the PSI pod don’t post at all or much in the God pod, and vice versa. From my observations, people tend to find one pod they’re comfortable in and mostly or entirely stick to that one pod.
Nicole said
wow, marmalade, I am glad you referred me back here via your comment because I had sort of noticed that but now I see it very clearly. Same thing with the Integral Pod – people who are most active there are not active in God Pod and vice versa.
Marmalade said
I am glad I referred myself back here via my comment for the same reason. When Balder first commented, I didn’t even make the connection between what I had just been saying and my own experience of not entirely fitting in the IPS pod (for some reason I was saying PSI before).
Like I said elsewhere, I have a very intellectual side but its an NF intellectuality. I’m drawn to the intellectuality of the IPS pod, but it isn’t quite my style. Kela in particular appears extremely NT. I’ve tried to fit into NT communites such as atheist/agnostic discussion boards, but it never felt natural to me. I’ve also had difficulty fitting in on many other integral discussion boards I’ve visited even though integral is one of my favorite topics.
I can communicate in NT language. It just takes more effort to do so. I love rationality, but from my pov rationality when taken far enough ends up underminig itself. I get bored and frustrated when discussions don’t ever get outside of rational discussion.
This reminds me of Jonny Bardo’s blog titled Integralism: Masculine and Feminine. I also brought up typology in the comments there. Interestingly, in the blog, Jonny Bardo was critiquing integralism because of its bias; and, in the comments, JB mentions that he tested out as an INFP (the same type as me).
Nicole said
exactly! see what i said in the Mod Pod about online spiritual community versus purely rational discussion
debyemm said
Ben,
Not to worry about anything I post. I just think it is considerate to let someone know when their blog has been linked. I’m sure it isn’t all that important that it happened, just letting you know. I even will have to go back and read the link myself because I’ve forgotten what it was about.
I noted and understood the conversation between you and Nicole about pods and activity within them. While it may not hold true for all pods, I think many are like a kind of club or organization all their own. Just like in business, we do business with those we like (or should, to have good karma in my pov), I think we belong to and are active in the pods we feel most comfortable in.
I visit the God Pod from time to time but still feel the bit of an outsider there. Not sure of the intent of the statement that heads it – is it that you think there is, or question that there is or are just exploring whether there is. So, I feel I have to understand the context of your discussions better before I get in there too heavy.
I spend most of my time in the Living Metaphysics pod because I cultivate it and feel a responsibility to keep it interesting. I try to spend some time in an “old folks” pod for those over 50 yrs of age, because I agreed to moderate there (Nicole, I am truly amazed how you can manage so many moderators – I’m not sure I’ve seen any other pods with so many). I don’t often find threads that I resonate alot with in the “old folks” pod but I try to get there regularly because I respect the cultivator and the commitment I made to her.
As to all the Integral jargon, it goes right over my head and I’ll admit I don’t have the foggiest idea of what NT or NF or INFP stand for. I do read Integral related blogs on occasion, and on occasion a posting in an Integral pod when it is referenced or linked to in a blog. I really don’t have all that much time for blogs either but I realize that there are lot of Integralists here at Gaia (I think they make up the largest group here at Gaia philosophically, if it can be called a philosophy). The Integral System of color coded levels was even discussed recently in the Science of Mind magazine (which I copied into my pod as I thought it important for us to understand and liked getting a primer from a pov I understand).
Well, I’ve just been chiming in this morning. Actually, I feel I’ve been butting in on a private conversation conducted publically between you two but since a blog is public, I guess my thoughts and opinions are appropriate here. I don’t seem to fit in with Integral – couldn’t even get into the pod when I wanted to explore it because someone there questioned my right to be there. Don’t have a clue why but it always feels overly complicated (I guess that’s the intellectuality you both seem to like and truly I like a good intellectual conversation my self, which is probably how I ended up here). Many of the Integralists I’ve run up against smack of superiority and a “I’m better than most of humanity” attitude “because I’ve achieved such and such a level”. Just how it “feels” when I get anywhere near it but it’s probably a misunderstanding of the genre and the people on my part. I’m just out of my league there and I’ll admit that.
Wishing you both all the best – always,
Deborah
Marmalade said
Hey Deborah!
I’m sorry the comments here felt like a private conversation. Probably the reason it feels that way is that Nicole is the only person here on Gaia that I’ve come to know to any great extent, and she is the only person who regularly comments in my blogs. I would love it if many many people regularly commented in my blogs.
I’m also sorry that the letter jargon went over your head. It comes from MBTI (Myers-Briggs) which is based on Carl Jung’s theories on personality types. It has nothing to do with integral per se (except in my mind). I could give you some links if you’d like, but you could find plenty of introductory info by just doing a search. BTW I’m planning on starting a thread in the God Pod about it.
I’d be curious to know more about what makes you feel like an outsider in the God Pod.
You say you aren’t sure of the intent of the heading. I can’t say I am entirely sure either other than it seems to be purposely open-ended, but I am sure of the intent of Nicole as she has made it very clear in various discussions. I’ll let Nicole explain her intent if she wishes.
Context of discussions.. what do you mean? The only context is that it relates to God or other similar things such as spirituality, religion, development, meaning, activism, etc. God is interpreted broadly in the God Pod. If God exists, then he relates to everything and so no particular topic is necessarily inappropriate for the pod. Of course, belief in God isn’t requisite for participating.
debyemm said
Marmalade,
Thank you for taking the time to give me such detailed answers to my many questions. I am touched by this effort from you. Thank you for clearing up the jargon. I think I’ve done a Myers-Briggs, perhaps some many years ago. It is a faint kind of memory that the name rings a bell. I’m a good researcher and so I can look into it myself. You have done enough in that regard.
Perhaps outsider is not the correct word to describe my feelings but I am having trouble feeling a strong resonance there for myself. I do come and look around but most conversations I have stumbled upon have not really prodded me to participate. The thread from Centria/Kathy about Enlightenment, I had already arrived at in her space.
I really thought the “intent” of the heading was as you describe it but thanks for verifying that. I felt the openness of it clearly and did not mis-read that. When I say context, I think I am wondering about a common thread that binds the various subjects together, most pods have that and again, you have clarified that as well.
I’ll continue to lurk, perhaps get the hang of it someday and even get into some interesting energies of back and forth to a point of clarification such that the parties find common ground – a personal love of my heart – to start out at some distance apart and through the effort to be understood, arrive where the distance between is no longer great. That is success to me.
Wishing you always – all the best,
Deborah
Nicole said
Ben, forgive me if I focus on Debye, because she raises so important points. This is your blog but you know I agree with everything you’ve said already, so I will press on to Deb’s points.
Deb, I want to back what Ben said about this not being an exclusive conversation. I am just as delighted as Ben when you and others comment here, you are most welcome at all times! I go into more detail in my very long comment to Ben’s more recent blog about minor frustration with Gaia.
I have learned always to check in first with someone before linking their blog. more than nine times out of ten it’s ok and they are more than happy but sometimes they really prefer not. So that’s important.
Is there a God? originated as a blog discussion by that name. However we have gone so far beyond that person’s intent that she seems to have no interest whatsoever in the pod anymore 🙂 so I think I should change the name. Thanks for prompting me.
Deb,I’m not sure what you mean about managing moderators, I don’t spend any time doing that 🙂 my mods are my best help and support on the pod and off.
Sorry you weren’t welcoming into Integral. While I respect the right of pods to be semi-private or private, I know that can hurt feelings, which is one of the reasons the God Pod is open.
Resonance is important, so totally feel free not to participate actively in the God Pod if nothing calls to you. As Ben said so well, God relates to everything, so everything is relevant, which makes it seem like there is no common thread.
Unlike most other groups on Gaia, the God Pod is a true online community. This is not a judgment of other groups, merely an observation – it’s very hard to be a community if a group is not really active or if there is too much arguing or if it’s too intellectual or if it’s limited in scope. In fact, most groups are probably not intended to be communities per se and that’s fine.
So that means we discuss whatever is on the hearts of those who post. It seems like we are all over the place but that’s humanity, eh?
Love and hugs!
debyemm said
Nicole,
I absolutely depend on my moderators too. They add content, are active and committed and are mature minds, if I miss something (with family and business demands) that should be attended to. I have on occasion been alerted to a less than appropriate post but always deal with that by sending love and reassurance that direction. We too are all over the place within a field of interest but I am pretty broad in my interpretation of what fits.
My attitude towards Integral is just that it must not be meant for me. I don’t resonate with what I know of Wilber-ology, though the idea of “integrating” appeals to me in the form of my own understanding of what that means. I certainly was open minded enough to want to learn more and thought the protective, excluding welcome strange for such a large group.
I don’t ask permission to link to a blog (I have always thought it a pretty public thing, to write on the net that way) but I always inform the original writer that I’ve mentioned them with a link or used snippets to make a point and linked back for complete content. I have believed that the interwoven nature is part of what makes blogging different.
I do intend to visit your pod more. I found, thanks to following a post by Marmalade, something about Time that I feel will interest me. I really need to get to bed, it’s almost 2am and I need to be up early but here I am because I’ll be gone tomorrow and wanted to respond and not let a couple of days go by.
I doubt I will have time to be community in your pod but I can visit and I know I’m welcome to. A place I like enough to go there but don’t choose it for living the majority of my Gaia life. Time requires priorities as do responsibilities.
Wishing you continued success,
Deborah
Nicole said
Thanks, Deborah! Wonderful. And thanks Ben, for this opportunity for us to talk together in your space 🙂
Marmalade said
Talk all you like, Nicole. Mi casa su casa.
Nicole said
gracias, mi amigo!
today’s meeting had me wishing I could meet you sometime but I won’t be anywhere near Iowa City anytime and i don’t think you travel…
Marmalade said
You are correct… more or less. I do travel sometimes, but as little as possible. And now that my parents will be moving back to Iowa City, I might be travelling even less. I don’t generally enjoy travelling. If I never left Iowa City for the rest of my life, I’d be content. My view is that a person could live in a single location from birth to death and barely even scratch the surface of knowing the place.
Plus, my interpersonal needs are very minor. I have friends one of which is my lifelong bestfriend, I have family that lives nearby, and I have my kitties. What more do I need?
You, on the other hand, are a very different type of person.
Nicole said
LOLOL! That may be the understatement of the year, dear Ben. 🙂
You’re right, I have kitties, I have family, I have tons of close friends, I have my three children, and all my Gaia friends, and the International Association, and the learning centre…
But still am filled with longing for more, so I go out everywhere and meet these online friends and they become real time friends – we talk on the phone and on IM, the friendships deepen and deepen… and i wonder if a friendship will become more, especially if i spend so much time with him … and will see… time will tell, there are several people i care deeply about…